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Thure

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We don't have to come to an understanding, Paradox won't add Jewish religion and characters to the game and they gave their reasons why they won't do that. Now that you don't believe them, is totally up to you.

I believe, they won't do it... But please... I want to know, where you know, the Kingdom of Semie wasn't Jewish. I found this part very interesting (And I would add them as Jews in my mod... But if you have better sources, that they aren't Jews?). This have nothing to do, with Paradox and the Jews. They wouldn't add them, this is okay, because can add them by myself. :)
 

OrdepNM

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I believe, they won't do it... But please... I want to know, where you know, the Kingdom of Semie wasn't Jewish. I found this part very interesting (And I would add them as Jews in my mod... But if you have better sources, that they aren't Jews?). This have nothing to do, with Paradox and the Jews. They wouldn't add them, this is okay, because can add them by myself. :)

Its abit of "historians disagree" thingy rather than absolute truth. I think the real question is wether jews formed the main religion or if it was a minority-led kingdom kind of deal. Having been to that part of ethiopia with an NGO myself, the jewish presence there is kind of undeniable. The extent and the current population's claims tough, I will allow for dispute.

Now that you don't believe them, is totally up to you.

Dont try to group me with the institutional antisemitism bias meme/crowd because I have less patience for them than you probably do. I believe in PDS's reasons, that isnt incompatible with disagreeing with them.
 
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Lorehead

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The presumed Jewish rulers in Ethiopa sren't in the game because they weren't Jews (they are only referred to as Jews from the 20th century onwards) and even uf they were there realm isn't even on the map ( to small, to insignificant).

This statement is completely false. In fact, it’s not until the 20th century that anyone important argued that the Beta Israel aren’t Jews, with the ulterior motive of opposing their immigration to Israel and their intermarriage with other Jews. Even the apocryphal stories of Eldad ha-Dani were widely believed from the ninth century onwards. Rabbi David ibn Zimra, chief rabbi of Egypt, ruled in the early sixteenth century that “those who come from the land of Cush are without doubt of the tribe of Dan,” although he goes on to say that they practice Judaism incorrectly and calls them Karaites. There are earlier surviving letters from other rabbis that also refer to them as Jews, albeit heterodox ones.

For a modern, scholarly history from a university press, I recommend Steven Kaplan’s The Beta Israel in Ethiopia: From Earliest Times to the Twentieth Century. I note that his thesis does support leaving them out, at least in a 1066 start: he argues that the ancestors of the Beta Israel probably converted in the fourteenth century, and that there was no organized Jewish kingdom until late in the Middle Ages.
 
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jordarkelf

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Guys, let's not turn this into a fight.
The Falasha of Beta Israel aren't in the default game because
A) the area they ruled in isn't even on the map (because Nubia is a mess anyway), and
B) There is no historical basis for a feudal kingdom there, at most we have evidence of tribal villages in the mountains that practiced some form of Judaism up to the 1980s at least, and
C) Even if they were to be added, we're looking at what, one or two provinces? Even if the Khazars are also made Jews, that makes for an awfully small religion with little attested rulers.

There are numerous mods that add Judaism to the game. I for one don't see the absolute need to get them in vanilla because of the above reasons.
 

Hibernian

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A) the area they ruled in isn't even on the map (because Nubia is a mess anyway)

That's not correct, the kingdom of Samien's area in Northern Ethiopia is covered by the vanilla map. In my opinion there's no justification to leave them out, other then Paradox's seemingly deliberate disinterest in non-European matters.
 

Olaus Petrus

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That's not correct, the kingdom of Samien's area in Northern Ethiopia is covered by the vanilla map. In my opinion there's no justification to leave them out, other then Paradox's seemingly deliberate disinterest in non-European matters.

From academic point of view medieval Ethiopian history is a huge mess, we don't even know for certain how long Zagwe dynasty ruled. There's plenty of folklore about Jewish Kingdom in Ethiopia, but not that many actual facts and historians have different theories. Lorehead mentioned earlier Kaplan's theory that Kingdom Semien was established only in the late middle ages. But naturally people of this forum have different views about the Ethiopian history than which Paradox has selected.

And while I agree with some posters that medieval Jews had important positions as courtiers especially in Iberia, it's probably easier to leave them out so you don't have to simulate stuff like Granada massacre of 1066 or European pogroms during the crusades or expulsions of the Jews. That might be bit touchy subject to some. Some flavour events about philosophers like Maimonides would be nice though.
 

Me_

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We don't have to come to an understanding, Paradox won't add Jewish religion and characters to the game and they gave their reasons why they won't do that. Now that you don't believe them, is totally up to you.

That answer is from almost two years ago. Long before they added a religion that not only no province has, but that did not even exist in Europe and does not show up (excep for a single line of rulers that more-or-less cannot be interacted with) unless one has a specific DLC. It's hard to believe that their reasoning did not change when they act against it.

If I recall correctly they were agains including an Absolute Cognatic inheritance in the game, yet they eventually did. SI wasn't originally planned either. There is no reason to believe that nothing had any chance to change in two years.
 
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unmerged(228153)

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That's all and great, except for the fact that persecution of religious minorities, i.e. "heretics", already exists whenever the Pope asks you about a "heretic stronghold in your realm" and you respond "I will strike against these heretics-County X gets "forced conversion, local revolt modifier increased by X amount.""

Heretics or proto-Protestants were hated by most rulers of this era as well, and yet they're in the game, so it would be a complete double standard to include them and yet ignore any Jewish population for the same reason.
You raise a good point. While you could argue from a gameplay perspective that heresies and actual religions/religious groups are a different matter, and that the event in question is somewhat ambiguous, this is hardly a justification: it's still oppression of a religious minority.

What's more, are there actually any historical Waldensian, Lollard, or Fraticelli landed vassals represented in the game...?

That said, I can definitely see why Paradox doesn't want any »expel the Jews and take their money!« events in their games. But the rationale that no Jewish realms existed within the CK2 map, timeframe and scope is indeed, as other users have stated, wrong. Similarly, there are no Zoroastrian rulers in CK2 last time I checked (though I may be wrong here), yet it is in the base game.
 

Heartsbane

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Taking loans happens automatically as an abstract game mechanic, which is fine with me — even though I'd like the option to take loans whenever I wish, not only when I'm bankrupt!

The persecution of Jews, or any other ethnic/religious group for that matter, is a no-go in every single Paradox game for very good reasons, and discussing this will not lead anywhere, nor will it ever be implemented (as Liam has stated already).

If you want Jews in your game, play a mod — Wiz' CK2+ has a formable Kingdom of Israel, for example.

That's what I was talking about :D. I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, I'm just of the opinion that from a gameplay perspective Jews would be better served represented as series of events or decisions rather than as whatever small kingdoms or Duchies had a Jewish majority or Jewish leadership during the timeframe that will undoubtedly be Holy Warred into oblivion by the more numerous Muslim or Christian Kingdoms. I just have a hard time seeing a Jewish Ethiopian Kingdom lasting very long with the current game mechanics and AI. I've never seen Nubia, Axum, or Abyssinia survive as Christian Kingdoms.
 

Lorehead

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From academic point of view medieval Ethiopian history is a huge mess, we don't even know for certain how long Zagwe dynasty ruled. There's plenty of folklore about Jewish Kingdom in Ethiopia, but not that many actual facts and historians have different theories.

Very true. The history files as they now stand seem to be very loosely based on sources which say there were Jewish members of the Zagwe family; I used that as my justification to replace the completely ahistorical Solomonid with a Jewish Zagwe ruler. There probably wasn’t an independent Jewish ruler of Khazaria in 1066, either, but I liked the effect on gameplay. (Similarly, when I played Matilda di Canossa in early builds, there was so much wrong, historically speaking, with the situation in which she’d invariably get into a conflict with the Pope because the Papal State was in the de jure territory of her title of Duchess of Spoleto. But it set up some great strategic dilemmas early on.)

And while I agree with some posters that medieval Jews had important positions as courtiers especially in Iberia, it's probably easier to leave them out so you don't have to simulate stuff like Granada massacre of 1066 or European pogroms during the crusades or expulsions of the Jews. That might be bit touchy subject to some. Some flavour events about philosophers like Maimonides would be nice though.

I’ve discussed in the past some other ways in which historical figures could have an influence on gameplay. For example, a number of rabbis who travelled to different countries in the time period (including Petachia of Ratsibon, who wrote about the Jews of Crimea and Khazaria in a letter I’ve discussed) might usefully be represented in the game as spies. Now that trade networks are appearing, their role in those could be relevant. Maimonides was not only a philosopher, but one of a number of Jewish court physicians, who could definitely appear for flavor in that capacity. (Indeed, around this time, one of the acts that won Saladin his reputation for chivalry was dispatching his personal physician to treat King Richard.) His predecessor in the court of Caliph al-Mutansir in 1066 was named Ephraim ibn al-Za'faran. Even if having Jews around just meant that some modestly-beneficial flavor events popped up every so often, it would be a nice touch and I think players would try to get those events to fire.

As for the reluctance to add Jews to the game, I suspect there are two things Paradox is trying to avoid. One is a Pogrom button, or especially anything that would enable an evil playthrough that someone could use to damage their reputation. They might have less concern about antisemitism that the player doesn’t instigate, or choices that are more about how actively to protect one’s Jewish subjects, but that’s up to them.

The other would be a stereotypical representation. For example, the one thing that everybody “knows” about Medieval Jews is that Jews were moneylenders and moneylenders were Jews. That also happens to be false, and I’m glad Paradox ditched the portraits of the hook-nosed moneylenders from the first Crusader Kings game. A lot of these stereotypes are ostensibly “flattering.” The other thing that everybody knows is that Jews were victims, so when people say that it wouldn’t be a good idea to have Jews in the game just as moneylenders and victims, one reaction you see is, “Oh, then there’d be nothing for them to do.”

I don’t think Paradox is ruling out having Jews in the game at all. (The quotation supposedly establishing this is being taken completely out of context; in a game where Jews already existed, the dev was saying that it wouldn’t add events to spawn more of them randomly if they disappeared, not to do anything but just for the sake of having them around.) More likely, they haven’t come up with a good reason to put them in yet. I’ll note that the fact that there’s interest in them is itself a fine reason to have them; what better reason does a game need?
 
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unmerged(228153)

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What Lorehead said is sound and reasonable. Now, I do think that the most important Jewish contributions to Medieval culture and society (administration, medicinal knowledge, money-lending, liturgical poetry, mysticist philosophy, translations of Arabic scholarly works) can be abstracted by core game mechanics — namely, tech levels and loans — but that undermines the point of CK2 being a character-driven game.

Frankly, Kalderus is right (and I was wrong earlier): the possibility of wiping out the Fraticelli heresy in an entire province with a single mouseclick seems to imply that there's a double standard at work here; that said, I'm also convinced that the developers aren't really at fault for that. I mean, does the average CK2 player really care about the friggin' Fraticelli heresy? Has he or she even heard of it before? (Mind you, this isn't as much of a niche game as, say, EU2 was back in the day.) In terms of gameplay, there isn't even the slightest difference between all those Catholic heresies, and yet you don't find too many complaints about that.

But I guarantee you that everyone's heard a little bit about the Jews. And lemme just quote good old Alexander Pope here: a little learning is a dangerous thing.

Well, unless you're playing Crusader Kings II, that is. Who cares about the learning stat?!
 
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unmerged(617449)

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My intention wasn't to drum up life for a paradox denies the holocaust conspiracy (which I don't know about, nor would I support). I should have narrowed the scope of my statement, which is limited to my experience with the company to this one game. It's more than incidental that Jews are omitted from this game (other than a menorah and a guy named Isaac (his heirs don't even have names auto-generate with similarly old testament sounding names, instead reverting to the Cuman template)), as others have already stated.

My original point was that it's bizarre and probably more than a little a-historical that a Cuman Orthodox Christian vassal of the Khan is named Isaac and that his titular duchy coat of arms is obviously in the shape of a menorah. Further, he cannot declare holy war on anything (though I now wonder if a cross aligned vassal cannot declare holy wars at all; it's certainly worth investigating, anyway), and rules a Turkish Orthodox Christian county which has absolutely no Religious or Cultural tolerance (zero point zero levels across the board which is also worth a cocked eyebrow: less tolerance than rural Ireland in the same period, really?). While I am amused by the unique game play this sets up, I am curious as to what circumstances led to this formation (something tells me forgotten or to-be-implemented features tops the list of possibilities). That isn't to say that I am disappointed by the discussion this has fostered, or that I want to derail any part of it.

Add me to the list of people that want Jewish advisers and nobles in relevant parts of the map. My forte is not the middle ages, so I'll refrain from lobbying for a playable Jewish state due to its historicity in that time period (though I'd certainly play one if given the chance).

Because I can't not address it: to say the company mentions the culture/religion in other games or that it can be easily modded into this one doesn't excuse what appears to be an attempt to dodge controversy by whitewashing the Jewish peoples and faith from a game that in most other regards attempts to simulate religious and cultural persecution in a historically accurate manner. This omission should be near the top of any future list of official changes to a game that appears to value claims to historical accuracy.
 

AndrewT

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I believe its just as defenceless to claim that it makes perfect sense to cherry pick one religion to not include in the game when everything else under the moon appears to be in ...
What religions smaller than Judaism are represented in the game?

At the very least, the decision to exclude all jewish representation from the game is weird, thats all Im saying here.
No, it's not weird, it's entirely compatible with the game's aims. You make it sound like the developers actively decided to exclude this one tiny religion and then made up a rationale for that, it ain't so. There was no active decision to exclude Judaism per se; they included major religions which did have majority representations in significant areas of the map, a list on which Judaism and all other such minority religions did not appear.

Why Judaism of all the minuscule religions gets threads like this year after, I don't know. Here's yet another one, started just now:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?655620-Judaism-and-Paradox-games
 

AndrewT

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Add me to the list of people that want Jewish advisers and nobles in relevant parts of the map.
How do you know none of the advisors now are Jewish? Some will certainly be conversos/marranos.
 

Arokel

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The whole lack of Jews is weird. Let me make it clear I do not think its any sort of anti-semitic thing by Paradox. But it still feels... weird.
 

Me_

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What religions smaller than Judaism are represented in the game?

Most heresies and Aztec religion. But the prize still goes to Zikri - in-game its a Muslim sect. The problem? It did not exist until 18th century.
 

liamgamer55

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How do you know none of the advisors now are Jewish? Some will certainly be conversos/marranos.
Uhh, is this confusing jews as a religion with jews as a race? In medieval times I'm pretty sure it was only really your current and past religion that mattered to most religions (excluding judaism), not whether your grandmother was jewish. "My catholic advisor in spain might have been born a jew but converted at age 6" is possibly one of the silliest abstractions I've ever heard if that's what you're implying. Sure if someone converts then have that in the game, but it's silly to represent converted jews without representing non converted jews as well.

With that said, having a trait that represents people's former religions could be pretty cool and it might make sense too(and would for instance allow many formerly zoroastrian nobles to hold titles since they are currently muslim). A formerly orthadox priest is far more likely to be suspected of heresy by the pope than one who has been catholic all their life IMO.
What religions smaller than Judaism are represented in the game?
It could be argued that concidering the Jew's significant role in trade, science, money lending and etc that many of the smaller and more obscure orthadox religions and heresies are less important. Having one province be bogomolist certainly qualifies as a religion that's less important than Judaism IMO. Even Nestorianism may be less important.

That said, an argument could be made that the threshold for representing heresies is logically much lower than the threshold for representing entire religion groups. Also I think the main thing is is that they were important in lots of places, so much so that it'd take a lot of work to represent them well so it's better that they're simply not there until a decision is made to represent them properly(a religion dlc maybe?). Till that theoretical dlc is made, mods are absolutely able to fill in the gaps. I can't think of a single game mechanic involving Jews (e.g. being in debt makes you lose piety, jews spawn in your court occasionally etc) that can't already be represented with events and the tools modders have available. Till a nicely done dlc (hopefully) comes, just use mods.
 
Last edited:

Veldmaarschalk

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Bogomils cover more then one province, you just look in 1066, but later in the game files it spreads to more provinces and there are even bogomil rulers.