The bizarre Jewish state of Khazar

[unmerged(617449)]

I can't tell if my game is bugged or this is working as designed or an unfinished idea or some fourth thing, but the titular duchy of Khazar is one of the most unique and bizarre starts in the game. The southern most point of the kingdom of Cumania, in the county of Itil, is where the Cuman Orthodox Christian (Jewish) Issac Doganin resides. He has no relatives (like all the rest of the Cumans (all of whom apparently paratrooped into the region from outer space in January 1066)), no ideal allies and no de-jure claims.

[By means of background, I'll provide that I've played the game for months and have had a couple of successful independent Kingdoms of Alania, so I know I what I'm doing in that area of the map.] The initial plan in my current game was to get in good with the Khan by sending my chancellor to the capitol. I'd have sent my chaplain as well, but half of my court was pagan, so he remained home to convert the populace (which swapped to pagan about five years in and then back to Orthodoxy). The hope was the king would like me enough to grant me the duchy of Itil and some de-jure claims on the counties therein. I would have no such luck: not once did I proc the event with the chancellor over five years, and despairing, I sent my man off to fabricate a claim on the county of Yaik (at that point the only unattached county in the duchy of Itil).

Khazar is further hampered by a seemingly buggy inability to press holy wars (not on pagans, Muslims, or Christians), so for the first ten years, Issac was twiddling his thumbs, counting his 1 money unit per month from his county and by murder obtained barony (tm). The fabrication seemed like it would never come, making me think it was entirely impossible (opening up a purely marriage/murder game of expansion for which Isaac the hedonist was amply prepared). Finally, 13 years into the game, and 3 years before the Chief of Yaik would be able to ally with a guaranteed troop sender (co-heathen hater), the fabrication came. A quick drafting of the supremely useful early game Bulgar mercenaries (60 monies and less than 4 a month) netted a second county and a little breathing room.

Nearing the end of his life and with a couple more holdings in the former lands of Alania (poor AI controlled house of Halani), Isaac saw a chance to cash in all his favors from offering to join wars (even if he had only cheered from his home in Itil). With the begrudging respect from the High Chiefs of Cumania, he forged a claim on the Duchy of Itil taking advantage of the instability of the new High Chief of Itil. After a realm weakening war of succession (which he joined to loot the non Jewish counties of Itil), Isaac pressed his claim, knowing the only ally of the High Chief was the High Chief of Azov, who himself was locked in a generational stalemate of a succession war (less than 100 troops sitting on each capitol, a terrible sight for a king, a welcome sight for anyone else).

With half of the de-jure counties of Cumania under the house of Doganin, at the age of 49, Isaac's health quickly deteriorated. As Isaac drooled, the Khan's power continued to dwindle, and the dream of a legitimate formation of a christian Cumania passed to Isaac's successors.

Anybody else played Khazar, is it bugged? If so, don't tell paradox, it's working as bugged.

 

[Dr. Moe Lester]

The Khazars were Jewish if that is what you mean.

 

[unmerged(617449)]

Yes, to an extent, I'm wondering if the way the house of Doganin is in the game is a work-around because paradox insists on avoiding mentioning Judaism.

 

[Prince de Conti]

Well to the developers credit, the Khazars probably converted to Orthodox, other than that I do not know why Judaism wasn't included, unless there are plans to incorporate it in the future; if they do, then Ethiopia is also lacking at least one Jewish Kingdom (although the Nubia-Ethiopia area is desperately in need of a general makeover).

Didn't bother playing Khazar myself when I saw that the family was Orthodox.

 

[Lorehead]

I’ve played a Jewish Ethiopia in CK2+, and always ended up inviting the refugees of Khazaria to my court and fighting a holy war to put the Doganins (or their husbands or children of my dynasty) back on the throne.

Without having done a test game: I don’t believe you can declare holy war within the same realm, (Edit: Confirmed in the game files that you can’t.) and of course as an Orthodox Christian you can’t declare holy war on other Christians. Maybe you could get a marriage alliance to Byzantium, Georgia or Alania, and plot to fabricate a claim to the Duchy of Itil.

 

[liamgamer55]

Yes, to an extent, I'm wondering if the way the house of Doganin is in the game is a work-around because paradox insists on avoiding mentioning Judaism.

I thought it was because Jews were actually so important in the game that if they were going to be implemented, it'd be a major feature. Not simply a single count somewhere. They prefer not to cover it at all (for now at least) rather than to cover less than 1% of their influence in the region.

 

[OrdepNM]

I will say my game with the Khazars in CK2+ was one of the most enjoyably challenging games I had in this game. I cant tell you how many times I can absurdly close to a game over, but I was happy to make it to the end of the game with the Dogain family still jewish and still going (tough Itil had long gone to the Mongols). Forming Israel in this game is where we separate the men from the children

I thought it was because Jews were actually so important in the game that if they were going to be implemented, it'd be a major feature. Not simply a single count somewhere. They prefer not to cover it at all (for now at least) rather than to cover less than 1% of their influence in the region.

Is this something any dev said publicly? I mean, I dont subscribe to the idea that its all an anti-jewish/anti-zionist conspiracy or that paradox doesnt wannna risk getting dragged into the myth that modern zionists are converted Khazars, but the lack of jews is puzzling, specially in Andalusia and after SoI.

 

[liamgamer55]

Yes I believe so, it's not just theorycrafting. I don't remember any recent threads saying this though so it might take quite a bit of searching to see any commentary on it. There's Jewish people in victoria 2 that don't do much, so I doubt their lack of presence in ck2 is merely about political correctness. Absolutely though jews is one of those holes in gameplay that can be very nicely plugged by mods. Even having a single count of a different religion can improve gameplay in a certain way. I like to implement a Cornish culture to add in some extra flavour for similar reasons.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

The thing with the Jewish pops in Vicky 2 is that they can be easily represented in the game, so they are. In CK2 we have to implement a completely new religion (and all the relationships that entails), possibly new mechanics/modifiers (so most christians don't hate them as much as pagans/muslims), all for possibly one vassal count, and maybe someone in Ethiopia. Everywhere else they were just regular people, and thus not particularly relevant (outside of maybe events) to a game that's focused on dynastic relationships and politics.

At least with Zoroastrians they can just fold them into the general pagan religious group (though that is an area that needs improvement).

 

[Heartsbane]

The thing with the Jewish pops in Vicky 2 is that they can be easily represented in the game, so they are. In CK2 we have to implement a completely new religion (and all the relationships that entails), possibly new mechanics/modifiers (so most christians don't hate them as much as pagans/muslims), all for possibly one vassal count, and maybe someone in Ethiopia. Everywhere else they were just regular people, and thus not particularly relevant (outside of maybe events) to a game that's focused on dynastic relationships and politics.

At least with Zoroastrians they can just fold them into the general pagan religious group (though that is an area that needs improvement).

I'm of the opinion that for a game like CK2, Jews are best represented through events and decisions than as actual, playable lords. Taking loans from Jewish money lenders, expelling Jews and taking their property etc.

 

[unmerged(228153)]

I'm of the opinion that for a game like CK2, Jews are best represented through events and decisions than as actual, playable lords. Taking loans from Jewish money lenders, expelling Jews and taking their property etc.

Taking loans happens automatically as an abstract game mechanic, which is fine with me — even though I'd like the option to take loans whenever I wish, not only when I'm bankrupt!

The persecution of Jews, or any other ethnic/religious group for that matter, is a no-go in every single Paradox game for very good reasons, and discussing this will not lead anywhere, nor will it ever be implemented (as Liam has stated already).

If you want Jews in your game, play a mod — Wiz' CK2+ has a formable Kingdom of Israel, for example.

 

[OrdepNM]

The thing with the Jewish pops in Vicky 2 is that they can be easily represented in the game, so they are. In CK2 we have to implement a completely new religion (and all the relationships that entails), possibly new mechanics/modifiers (so most christians don't hate them as much as pagans/muslims), all for possibly one vassal count, and maybe someone in Ethiopia. Everywhere else they were just regular people, and thus not particularly relevant (outside of maybe events) to a game that's focused on dynastic relationships and politics.

At least with Zoroastrians they can just fold them into the general pagan religious group (though that is an area that needs improvement).

Nothing you mentioned is exactly tedious or time consuming tbh (at least when compared to some of the piles of work-hours it must have taken to collect some of the information presented in-game, or the work of writting in every jewish pop in VII). The best testament to that being that most overhaul mods implemented jewish courtiers just fine. And the opinion modifier you mentioned to make them less hated by catholics than muslims is completely unnecessary as they were just as hated. Remember that these were the days when "jews killed jesus" was common acceptance.
If you wanted to get really realistical, the only new mechanic would be probably to forbid jews from leading catholic armies, but in a game where my marshall can be in Tunis crusading and I can immediatly remove him from command and send him to lead another army in Scania, I hardly think they just *had* to get that detailed.

Overall, the absence of jews in catholic lands isnt insanely puzzling (ease of implementation appart), but when you move on to muslim realms it certainly becomes odd. Al-Andalus in particular was a vibrant center for jewish communities and in a game that has zoroastrians, thats kinda of a big (if marginally important) thing to miss.

 

[Prince de Conti]

The thing is, Jews were much more of the fabric of Medieval Society than a religion. They were often the only ones who could read/write (often multiple languages) and therefore often had positions of influence. In Iberia, for instance, they were often an integrated part of the nobility (for instance like the Abravanel family).

Also, in Iberia there was created a Judeo-Christian hybrid, 'The Marranos', who faced tremendous persecution (its hardly likely that the Marranos were simple peasants toiling in the field ).

 

[jordarkelf]

Back on main topic, I love seeing the Khazars thrive in my mod. In my mod they're of the Khazar culture and Karaite religion (Jewish variant), and I have seen them take on the Turkmens before and win.
The Falasha of Beta Israel are a hit or miss... half the time they're conquered by muslims or Abyssinia, other times they become the major power there.

 

[Prince de Conti]

Not sure if Khazars were Karaite. The Karaites seem to have been a Judeo-Islamic hybrid and seem to have flourished chiefly in Islamic countries, mainly because they often were supported Moslem rulers and possibly because as I said they were an Islamic influenced sect. Their rejection of the Jewish Oral Law is a bit of a joke as they seem to have filled in the blanks with their own man-made laws whenever it suited their purpose - much like the Sadducees whom Josephus says sat in judgment with their 'Book of Decrees'!

The Khazars are highly celebrated in Rabbinical Judaism, I hardly think this would be the case had they been Karaites.

 

[jordarkelf]

Yeah it's not 100% certain they were Karaite in specific (although Crimean Karaites love to claim they are direct descendants of the Khazars), but we do know they didn't follow mainstream Judaism (or whatever passed for that in the Middle Ages). I could call it 'Khazar Judaism' but Karaite sounds nicer.

 

[AndrewT]

Yes, to an extent, I'm wondering if the way the house of Doganin is in the game is a work-around because paradox insists on avoiding mentioning Judaism.

"Paradox insists" on no such thing. I wish this meme would die an early quick death. There ARE mentions of Judaism in, eg, EU2 and EU3. The lack of it as a state religion in any particular game is due to historical reality and game design decisions, not any institutional bias or so-called political correctness.

 

[OrdepNM]

"Paradox insists" on no such thing. I wish this meme would die an early quick death. There ARE mentions of Judaism in, eg, EU2 and EU3. The lack of it as a state religion in any particular game is due to historical reality and game design decisions, not any institutional bias or so-called political correctness.

(Apologies if Im breaking the dont quote a moderator rule here, but Im assuming youre not posting here as one)

And yet when we come to CK2 that argument sounds flat both historically (through several reasons already mentioned in this thread) and game design (namely over how effortless it would be to add a random jewish courtier spawn to the game). As I said I certainly dont subscribe to the institutional bias theory and have told other to shut up about it in the past, but I believe its just as defenceless to claim that it makes perfect sense to cherry pick one religion to not include in the game when everything else under the moon appears to be in, and applying silly workarounds for when that religion should clearly be implemented (like making the Khazars orthodox and giving them a menorah for a COA). At the very least, the decision to exclude all jewish representation from the game is weird, thats all Im saying here.

 

[liamgamer55]

In CK2 we have to implement a completely new religion (and all the relationships that entails)

I could make a jewish religion complete with new religion group in 3-5 minutes. That's really not an issue at all. The issue is more as you said they're irrelevent outside events.

"Paradox insists" on no such thing. I wish this meme would die an early quick death. There ARE mentions of Judaism in, eg, EU2 and EU3. The lack of it as a state religion in any particular game is due to historical reality and game design decisions, not any institutional bias or so-called political correctness.

Also a very different expansion/dlc/content model, for all we know there's a design document detailing all the dlcs over the next year (which apparently there is) and implemented judaism is part of one of the future dlcs. I reckon there's going to be a religious improvement dlc (maybe for catholics this time) maybe with improved holy orders as well. It makes sense that in that they might implement the catholic church's view on moneylenders and a few different events etc.

At the very least, the decision to exclude all Jewish representation from the game is weird, thats all Im saying here.

It looks like andrewt was more aiming his post at a general trend of some people finding this sortof thing as an excuse to complain about political correctness in society in general (including in games). It does indeed look like you had a specific complaint that made sense gameplay and game mechanics wise but there's the occasional post that's more of a conspiracy theory.

Not sure if Khazars were Karaite. The Karaites seem to have been a Judeo-Islamic hybrid and seem to have flourished chiefly in Islamic countries, mainly because they often were supported Moslem rulers and possibly because as I said they were an Islamic influenced sect. Their rejection of the Jewish Oral Law is a bit of a joke as they seem to have filled in the blanks with their own man-made laws whenever it suited their purpose - much like the Sadducees whom Josephus says sat in judgment with their 'Book of Decrees'!

The Khazars are highly celebrated in Rabbinical Judaism, I hardly think this would be the case had they been Karaites.

Does the theological doctrine of medieval jewish sects really matter past which religion group they should be in? I somehow doubt which ones are most true to Judaism is somehow relevant to the game.

 

[Manic Eskimo]

"Paradox insists" on no such thing. I wish this meme would die an early quick death. There ARE mentions of Judaism in, eg, EU2 and EU3. The lack of it as a state religion in any particular game is due to historical reality and game design decisions, not any institutional bias or so-called political correctness.

They are included in EU:Rome as a playable state.