The biggest example of feature bloat in the game

[Commonblob]

On the latest patch, go to the subject menu and open the subject interaction list for a colonial nation.

Then scroll down.... and keep scrolling....

If you have Leviathan then some of the buttons in the menu will open up further long lists of options.

I wouldn't really consider myself part of the "we need EU5" crowd, but there is no way that a new game would be designed like this. Some subject interactions are practically never useful, and some exist only as a bandaid for AI incompetency (block/allow settlement growth).

 

[Jarvin]

Hmmm
I don't think that's necessarily "feature bloat", that's the previous team's inability to implement features in an interesting, balanced way
There's no inherent issue with there being this many buttons, it's that - as you rightly pointed out - many of them are just bad or silly, but that's a design issue on a granular level, not macro level.

There's plenty of whole systems like that, where they currently feel hillariously badly implemented - and professionalism comes to mind as one of the forefront examples - but the concept behind their existence isn't wrong, it's just that they'd need to be significantly reshaped to fit well within the game.

 

[grisamentum]

My favorite subject interaction: offer knowledge sharing. Where you subsidize your subject and give them knowledge sharing.

Of course, you can still go into the normal diplomacy menu and offer knowledge sharing, where your subject pays YOU for your institution. Nothing stops you.

So I guess it's nice that we have the choice between giving our subject money and getting money from our subject.

 

[JackNotLantern]

I still wonder why for blocking settlement groth there are 2 buttons instead of one (on/off button like trade power diversion)

 

[AvengedK1ng]

I still wonder why for blocking settlement groth there are 2 buttons instead of one (on/off button like trade power diversion)

Because this was way found to stop existing settlement growth

On the latest patch, go to the subject menu and open the subject interaction list for a colonial nation.

Then scroll down.... and keep scrolling....

If you have Leviathan then some of the buttons in the menu will open up further long lists of options.

I wouldn't really consider myself part of the "we need EU5" crowd, but there is no way that a new game would be designed like this. Some subject interactions are practically never useful, and some exist only as a bandaid for AI incompetency (block/allow settlement growth).

Have a bigger screen or smaller ui and its less scrolling

 

[subzero12479]

My favorite subject interaction: offer knowledge sharing. Where you subsidize your subject and give them knowledge sharing.

Of course, you can still go into the normal diplomacy menu and offer knowledge sharing, where your subject pays YOU for your institution. Nothing stops you.

So I guess it's nice that we have the choice between giving our subject money and getting money from our subject.

they can still decline the normal knowledge sharing, the subject interaction doesnt give the a choice.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So I guess it's nice that we have the choice between giving our subject money and getting money from our subject.

I still find it annoying that you can't ask for it, with only allies and/or high trust nations being willing. The AI offers it anyway, but it's kind of random when it does.

 

[Uskayaw]

That's just hostile interface design. And yes, species menu in Stellaris and production interface in HOI4 have been like that since release.

 

[Commonblob]

That's just hostile interface design. And yes, species menu in Stellaris and production interface in HOI4 have been like that since release.

No I wouldn't consider the production interface of HOI4 to be similar to this at all. There's a difference between a list of items that are all following the same template (like production lines) and a list of options with a wide range of effects. Not even mentioning that the production interface in HOI4 has multiple QoL features like the ability to collapse all lines, or filter equipment by army branch. So I don't know why you'd use that as an example of bad design.

 

[bokorthedust]

I still find it annoying that you can't ask for it, with only allies and/or high trust nations being willing. The AI offers it anyway, but it's kind of random when it does.

I don't think it random, you can always get the AI to reliably offer it. You need the alliance (I haven't tried high trust nations, but you usually would need an alliance for that anyway, but you can get fresh allies with 50 or even 40 trust to offer it), they mustn't be already sharing it with someone, and you need to have more than 10% net income, because you play 10% for the knowledge sharing, and because the AI won't take it if it makes them end up with a deficit, you also must be able to pay for it without going into the red for them to offer it. If these 3 conditions are satisfied, the AI will offer it to you in 1-2 months time.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

I still find it annoying that you can't ask for it, with only allies and/or high trust nations being willing. The AI offers it anyway, but it's kind of random when it does.

You can't buy provinces either, meta would probs just be stack dip rep and ask Italian minors

 

[Twoflower]

It's not particularly glorious UI design, that's for sure.
That doesn't mean that all the options are useless and feature bloat, though. Right now, I am playing a tall Dutch Republic game where I'm really trying out the (relatively) new colonial subject types - which have their "special" interactions "hidden" behind the "Modify colony relationship" button. And if you enable any of the options, you don't really see how they affect your subject. It's very clunky design.
Choosing how to specialize your subject is still quite a bit of fun, I don't think that any of the three types is entirely useless, and the special interactions are also mostly not no-brainers and rather fluffy.
It should absolutely be presented better, but I would not want to lose the options

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can't buy provinces either, meta would probs just be stack dip rep and ask Italian minors

If it would be, it is now, because AI does offer it with some regularity. Much, much more frequently than selling provinces. If you are within colonial range and have a high trust alliance, it's a matter of time. It's just kind of random whether they offer it right away, or ~10 years later. But they almost always will.

Edit: seems this is mostly tied to whether you have enough money for "would the AI take it in your situation" (I hate mechanics that check that), and whether it's sharing with someone else first.

 

[nobodyinparticular]

Subject interactions are a bit bloated now because it used to be more limited so a simple list worked fine. I would like for the UI to be reworked into a grid instead - it could even be expanded further! You could get to see their country view tab-by-tab (except you cannot interact with most of it, duh), so you can have more information on your subjects beyond what the ledger offers (not to mention ease of use). This could then open up new subject interactions that you can run through their country view - like hiring advisors for them (that you pay for in hiring and maintaining), hiring a general for them (spending your mil points and using their leader cost and army tradition + pip modifiers, so it might be useful to get them a better one but will prevent cheesing & spamming your subjects with good generals).

 

[Nostalgium]

(I haven't tried high trust nations, but you usually would need an alliance for that anyway, but you can get fresh allies with 50 or even 40 trust to offer it)

Just a note on this, but you can curry favours and use them with nations you're not allied to. It takes longer, and you need relations over 50 to use them, but they're not alliance locked. It's an incredibly niche utility, but I've used Curry Favours and increased trust by 5 to tip an alliance I couldn't otherwise get in the past.

 

[bokorthedust]

Just a note on this, but you can curry favours and use them with nations you're not allied to. It takes longer, and you need relations over 50 to use them, but they're not alliance locked. It's an incredibly niche utility, but I've used Curry Favours and increased trust by 5 to tip an alliance I couldn't otherwise get in the past.

I know, but if you aren't allied, you get like 0.1 or some fraction of favors with them, unless the power disparity is through the roof, but at that point, who needs a weak ally? I certainly have better uses for my diplomats than to keep them for 8 years on a nation to get a trust bump with them, it's just not worth the time.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

I know, but if you aren't allied, you get like 0.1 or some fraction of favors with them, unless the power disparity is through the roof, but at that point, who needs a weak ally? I certainly have better uses for my diplomats than to keep them for 8 years on a nation to get a trust bump with them, it's just not worth the time.

High dip rep helps so does opinion
Weak ally means 1 less coalition, more forts, more navy

Just a note on this, but you can curry favours and use them with nations you're not allied to. It takes longer, and you need relations over 50 to use them, but they're not alliance locked. It's an incredibly niche utility, but I've used Curry Favours and increased trust by 5 to tip an alliance I couldn't otherwise get in the past.

Some interactions are allaince locked

 

[holyvigil]

On the latest patch, go to the subject menu and open the subject interaction list for a colonial nation.

Then scroll down.... and keep scrolling....

If you have Leviathan then some of the buttons in the menu will open up further long lists of options.

I wouldn't really consider myself part of the "we need EU5" crowd, but there is no way that a new game would be designed like this. Some subject interactions are practically never useful, and some exist only as a bandaid for AI incompetency (block/allow settlement growth).

If you want a simple game go play civ. There is no game more complex than Paradox Grand Strategy games (that runs well). If you want simple this is really the wrong type of game for you. Don't dumb down the game because there are those that like the complexity.

 

[Twoflower]

If you want a simple game go play civ. There is no game more complex than Paradox Grand Strategy games (that runs well). If you want simple this is really the wrong type of game for you. Don't dumb down the game because there are those that like the complexity.

Complexity is not a justification for UI design, and good presentation and UI design is not "dumbing down".
Especially a complex game like EU4 needs to present its options and its information as clearly and transparently as possible.

 

[FrogCrusher]

But 80% of the complexity is in reality false choice once you understand the basics.