The Big Basque Blunder: A Discussion on Culture Grouping

[MaticT]

Cultures need a complete overhaul.
I understand the mechanisms from Eu3 which were the reasons Hungarian was made west-slavic culture at that time, but these mechanisms are by now largely gone. No reason to keep things the way they were just for the sake of being used to it, really.

 

[kosarev]

You talk about the fuero sistem. To understand the basque situation we should look at what happened when it dissapeared. 3 carlist wars, the rise of basque nationalism, decades of terrorism and a political strugle towards independence up to this day. That doesnt spell accepted culture. More tolerated culture.

The issue is with the magyars here. They shouldnt be west slavic. But a mistake there shouldnt imply making the same mistake with the basques.

 

[Asturiano]

To preface this, I think the culture system in EUIV is a sadly underdeveloped facet of the game that could really use some extra love in future updates. The issue I want to bring up in this thread, however, is far simpler to solve in the upcoming 1.5 patch.

When I first got EUIV, I was expecting the Basque culture to be included along with the other Iberian cultures in the same "Iberian" group. After all, they had been grouped with the Castilians, Catalans, and Portuguese in both CK2 and Vic2, so my expectations had some precedent to them. When I saw that the Basques had their own culture group (of which they are the only member) and are NOT an accepted culture even for Spain, I was left very confused.

Now, in this scenario I see many similarities between the Basques and Hungarians. Both cultures are very ethnically distinct in terms of language and genealogy in comparison to their neighbors. I can practically hear the previous kerfuffles of "But the Magyars are Uralic! Why aren't they in a unique culture group?" However, EUIV has the Hungarians placed in the 'West Slavic' group while the Basques have to contend with complete cultural isolation.

Paradox's logic behind this is that it is not worthwhile to make a whole new ethnic group just for the Magyars, and they shared many similarities with their Slavic neighbors in terms of culture and common rulers. Yet why isn't this same logic applied to the Basques?

While the Basques spoke and still do speak their own language, they were very close culturally to their Iberian neighbors. There existed no deep animosity between Basques and the Iberians in the EUIV period, which the 'Not Accepted' modifier seems to represent. Furthermore, for the vast majority of the EUIV era the Basques lived under the rule of either the Spanish or French crowns.

The situation grows even more confusing when one looks at the Basques' "cultural unions." The Basques can form both Spain and France. However, they are not an accepted culture in either if another country forms them because of their cultural grouping! While this is realistic in the case of France (the Gascon culture is basically Francophone Basques), it is absurd in the case of Spain.

Looking back at the Basque's history under Spain, one can see many examples where the Basques were actually better off than the Castilians themselves! The Fueros system gave the Basques nearly-unprecedented autonomy for the EUIV era. They had their own legal codes which the Spanish King was sworn to uphold, they had legal protection from torture, were exempt from conscription, and had their own local parliaments.

This, I believe, fully qualifies the Basques for being 'Accepted' in Spain under EUIV's definition. Since Spain operates as a cultural union, I think this provides even greater impetus for scrapping the 'Basque' culture group and fully integrating them into the 'Iberian' group.

I agree completely, there's no good reason to have basque culture isolated like it is. It is most certainly a particular culture, but very much accepted in Iberia as a whole.

 

[Straigthtsilver]

You talk about the fuero sistem. To understand the basque situation we should look at what happened when it dissapeared. 3 carlist wars, the rise of basque nationalism, decades of terrorism and a political strugle towards independence up to this day. That doesnt spell accepted culture. More tolerated culture.

The issue is with the magyars here. They shouldnt be west slavic. But a mistake there shouldnt imply making the same mistake with the basques.

I think that just proves my point. The Carlist Wars, Basque Nationalism, and the ETA are all outside the EUIV timeline when the fuero system was eliminated. The destruction of the fueros, in essence, made them "Not Accepted" since the Spanish government was trying to assimilate the Basques.

During the EUIV timeline when the fuero system was at its height, there were AFAIK no major Basque uprisings or wars of independence. The Basques were free to live autonomously and maintain their culture, which shows them as "Accepted" in Spain in my opinion.

 

[Kraxis]

I think that just proves my point. The Carlist Wars, Basque Nationalism, and the ETA are all outside the EUIV timeline when the fuero system was eliminated. The destruction of the fueros, in essence, made them "Not Accepted" since the Spanish government was trying to assimilate the Basques.

During the EUIV timeline when the fuero system was at its height, there were AFAIK no major Basque uprisings or wars of independence. The Basques were free to live autonomously and maintain their culture, which shows them as "Accepted" in Spain in my opinion.

But the I think the point was that the Fuero System was almost exactly like the Non-Accepted Cultures of EUIV, save the Rebel Risk. Less taxes and no manpower. One could argue that the EUIV presentation is more generous since it is a relatively 'small' price to pay compared to letting them have autonomy in real life. Accepted Culture would mean they provided just as much to the state as everyone else, while that was clearly not that case.

I think it boils down to the words used. Accepted and non-Accepted have very strong emotional meanings as well. I accept you or I don't, and if I don't, I dislike you for who you are. That's pretty negative and sounds a lot like repression. But if we changed the wording to Inclusive and Exclusive Cultures, then it might not seem so bad. This in fact is quite similar to the 'Offensive vs Defensive Ideas can't exist together' thinking that sometimes pops up. It is the words that creates a need to change things.
The actual penalty for the 'red' cultures is similar to many autonomous regions, that is less taxes going to the state and less participation in the military.

 

[Straigthtsilver]

But the I think the point was that the Fuero System was almost exactly like the Non-Accepted Cultures of EUIV, save the Rebel Risk. Less taxes and no manpower. One could argue that the EUIV presentation is more generous since it is a relatively 'small' price to pay compared to letting them have autonomy in real life. Accepted Culture would mean they provided just as much to the state as everyone else, while that was clearly not that case.

I think it boils down to the words used. Accepted and non-Accepted have very strong emotional meanings as well. I accept you or I don't, and if I don't, I dislike you for who you are. That's pretty negative and sounds a lot like repression. But if we changed the wording to Inclusive and Exclusive Cultures, then it might not seem so bad. This in fact is quite similar to the 'Offensive vs Defensive Ideas can't exist together' thinking that sometimes pops up. It is the words that creates a need to change things.
The actual penalty for the 'red' cultures is similar to many autonomous regions, that is less taxes going to the state and less participation in the military.

I can see your point and I definitely agree with you on the ambiguous wording on a lot of things in EUIV. That being said, I'd still like to see Basques in the Iberian culture group if only to see them survive longer than just the early game.

 

[User4035]

They need to improve the mechanice that makes cultures accepted. Not just 20% of tax or whatever it is.

Example:
If you control all of that culture you can make it yellow accepted by spending diplomacy points.
If you control all of that culture group than you can make them green accepted by spending diplomacy points.

 

[aitaituo]

They need to improve the mechanice that makes cultures accepted. Not just 20% of tax or whatever it is.

Example:
If you control all of that culture you can make it yellow accepted by spending diplomacy points.
If you control all of that culture group than you can make them green accepted by spending diplomacy points.

The problem with this is that you shouldn't be able to have several accepted cultures except in unusual circumstances. Accepted culture means that not only do they feel like a real, substantial part of your nation, but that your administration conducts regular business in their language and according to their customs. While the local incarnations of your administration, courts and tax collectors and army recruiters and such, can operate in the local language, your court/parliament/whathaveyou, can't realistically operate in a half dozen languages without accommodations that are probably going to result in lowered tax and recruitment efficiency and some revolt risk from less than equal representation.

 

[Kyoumen]

I can see your point and I definitely agree with you on the ambiguous wording on a lot of things in EUIV. That being said, I'd still like to see Basques in the Iberian culture group if only to see them survive longer than just the early game.

The thing is, the Basques are ethnically unrelated not only to the Iberians but to everyone else in Europe, being the last known coherent remnant of the people that inhabited Europe before the migrations that brought the various non-Basque current inhabitants of Europe there; ethnically, the Basques have been genetically unique in Iberia for over 7000 years, and have been in Iberia longer than agriculture has.

That is presumably the reason they are in their own culture group - because it is probably the most well-known and generally notable thing (fairly or unfairly) about the Basque culture. Making it unique and in its own group reflects that and is cool and challenging, a not-inconsiderable value in a video game such as this. Plenty of people loved spreading the Basque culture far and wide in EUIII, despite the fact there was absolutely nothing else noteworthy about playing Navarre except for decent sliders. I think that uniqueness and cool factor has value in EUIV as well, even though it does make it more likely the culture group will disappear in the hands of the AI. National ideas for Navarre could help a bit, perhaps?

As a clarification for some who misunderstood my previous post, I am not saying the Basques are more unique than the Hungarians, or offering any opinion at all on what culture group the Hungarians should or shouldn't be part of. It isn't a comparison thing, as I'm honestly not familiar enough with the Hungarian situation to opine on them.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

To me this is a historical example of how the Basques were not an accepted culture in Spain. That is to have exceptional laws and different crown authority than the rest of Spain.

I will say that it is far too easy to change the culture of provinces in the game. For example I always culture change Viscaya and Navarra ASAP as Spain. I culture change Labourd as France. It is virtually unimaginable for a cultural identity being wiped out in a single lifetime, which in this game is a viable strategy when dealing with minor unaccepted cultures like Basque, Welsh or Finnish. The closest thing I can think to this happening in history is the Mongol annihilation of the Cuman or the atrocities committed during the World Wars against the Armenians or the Jews. Not to mention how it's done peacefully by spending diplomatic points. I'm destroying their culture, language and customs while they don't fight back.

Smaller and isolated cultures are at a disadvantage with regard to expansion, which makes them challenging to play as.

Separate laws have nothing to with the fact if some culture is accepted or not. Spanish kingdoms had their own separate laws for a long time and Catalonia and Valencia were placed under the Castilian legislation only in the early 18th century when king Philip V signed Decretos de Nueva Planta. Basques kept their separate legislation, because (unlike the Aragonese) they had supported the king during the War of the Spanish Succession.

It would be nice if there were better methods of dealing with cultures than the extremely simplified and somewhat tragic system in place now. It is much more feasible to simply wipe out the minor cultures from your empire due to the horrible malus to tax rate and manpower. After all, since it is tied to base tax comparative to your entire empire, they will simply never be accepted. I would rather there be a decision I can take to accept the cultures for a hefty diplo point sum, instead of erasing them from existence.

While I don't think that the system is supposed to symbolize outright genocide, that's the only realistic way how you could achieve cultural conversion as easily as in EUIV. Real English haven't got rid of the Welsh yet and Castilians haven't managed to eradicate Basque language and culture, because they have decided to use softer methods of cultural assimilation (which still can be seen as oppressive). But these attempts happened mostly at 19th and 20th century, which isn't game's time frame. Rather than cultural conversion I would prefer system, where you could make provinces lose (or reduce) the wrong culture penalty, but in a manner that the provinces would still keep their original culture. It would be more realistic and would represent how minority cultures eventually accepted their new overlord. Nationality became serious problem only after the invention of nationalism.

 

[Kraxis]

I can see your point and I definitely agree with you on the ambiguous wording on a lot of things in EUIV. That being said, I'd still like to see Basques in the Iberian culture group if only to see them survive longer than just the early game.

I can agree to that.

Culture conversion seems to be a little too easy and too fast.
Maybe the price could use a little hike up, and a building be added to the game that removes the revolt risk and increases some other aspects of a non-accepted culture (there are a lot 'hidden' penalties as well, like conversion rate). Let's call it Autonomous Assembly Hall, or something like that. If I could build that and remove the revolt risk and at least some of the hidden penalties, I might very well not culture convert. I wouldn't mind the loss of taxes and manpower if I can just make the provinces calm and productive otherwise. And I think that is exactly what many monarchs did with various cultures. Let them handle a bunch of things on their own. Aside from the French, and the Germans to an extent (I only know about Prussia vs Polish culture), culture conversion was rare. Though Sweden must be considered part of that little group for the cultural repression in Scania, Blekinge and Halland.