The big 8 - and the lesser 8

[Closet Skeleton]

If the tier 2 countries only have like a 60% or 70% less events than tier 1 countries, then countries that exist or are important for only 70% of the game's time span are obviously tier 2 material.

If you pick the 80 years war start, then if the Netherlands is tier 2 it probably won't actually feel like it has less events than its tier 1 neighbours since their extra events won't trigger from such a late start date.

I really doubt Brandenburg will be tier 1. Give Prussia and Brandenburg all the events they need and they still won't have as many as France. Mughals and Safayids would also likely be tier 2 at best for the same reason as the Netherlands.

For the 8th spot, it really has to be Poland or Sweden, since they existed at the start and had a lot happen to them throughout the period (remember again that every pre-set scenario contains a Poland and the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw just had Poland's tag in EU3). Poland needs events dealing with the reforms and the partitions even if you start at the French Revolution.

 

[Dragassa]

It was Phillip the II, who was told by one of his ministers that the sun never sets on spain. This was with the addition of the philippines, and the joining of the spanish and the portuguese crown. Of course this was 300 years before the english could say the same.

 

[Ruwaard]

If the tier 2 countries only have like a 60% or 70% less events than tier 1 countries, then countries that exist or are important for only 70% of the game's time span are obviously tier 2 material.

If you pick the 80 years war start, then if the Netherlands is tier 2 it probably won't actually feel like it has less events than its tier 1 neighbours since their extra events won't trigger from such a late start date.

I really doubt Brandenburg will be tier 1. Give Prussia and Brandenburg all the events they need and they still won't have as many as France. Mughals and Safayids would also likely be tier 2 at best for the same reason as the Netherlands.

For the 8th spot, it really has to be Poland or Sweden, since they existed at the start and had a lot happen to them throughout the period (remember again that every pre-set scenario contains a Poland and the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw just had Poland's tag in EU3). Poland needs events dealing with the reforms and the partitions even if you start at the French Revolution.

Maybe the tiers actually need a kind of promotion/relegation system? Some which are important in the early stages of the game gradually become less important, for instance Portugal. They don't disappear, don't get me wrong, but other European nations managed to catch up, like the Dutch Republic (in other words joined the top 8 or made it a top 9 etc.).
Another with a historically even briefer career was Burgundy, though to some extent the Netherlands, but also the Habsburgs are their heirs. OTOH a surviving Burgundy can be interesting, but events might become more tricky, since that is alternate history.
The peak of the Netherlands starts during the second quarter of the game, but by the last quarter declines again. Branden-Prussia is more something for the second half on the game period.

 

[KingCharlesXII]

Sweden at #8, I bet my crown on it!

 

[Avernite]

I could certainly see Burgundy being the tier-1 predecessor of the Netherlands.

The fate of Burgundy was vital to the early game (if it survives, will France be as powerful? Will the Habsburgs?), and essentially by rebellion it morphed into what we know as the Netherlands, but if a strong Burgundy had remained, centered in Brabant or Flandres (which I consider likely unless they manage to seize enough of France to effectively become France) they could well turn into a power with an outlook similar to the Netherlands.

And if not, well, triggers would stop the events. But making the events for a state centred on the Netherlands (which I think a smart set of triggers could do while avoiding Francoburgundy getting them) would make sense, as I think in 1444 the Netherlands region was already rich and trade focused, it was just more Flemish-focused while the rebellion shifted the focus to Holland.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

I could certainly see Burgundy being the tier-1 predecessor of the Netherlands.

The fate of Burgundy was vital to the early game (if it survives, will France be as powerful? Will the Habsburgs?), and essentially by rebellion it morphed into what we know as the Netherlands, but if a strong Burgundy had remained, centered in Brabant or Flandres (which I consider likely unless they manage to seize enough of France to effectively become France) they could well turn into a power with an outlook similar to the Netherlands.

And if not, well, triggers would stop the events. But making the events for a state centred on the Netherlands (which I think a smart set of triggers could do while avoiding Francoburgundy getting them) would make sense, as I think in 1444 the Netherlands region was already rich and trade focused, it was just more Flemish-focused while the rebellion shifted the focus to Holland.

But since tiers are about amount of historical flavor events, what would paradox write about after 1477? I think that people are overestimating importance of DHE's on gameplay, since Captain Gars said that:

These events are meant to give you some national flavor - not alter your game.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I don't agree on Japan being T2 at all. It's influence in the world during this period was very low. It's T3 for definite. It didn't really have any direct involvement with T1 nations. Also, balancing it isn't nearly as hard as balancing China.

For T2 I'd vote Aragon/Naples, Genoa, Hungary, Scotland, the Papal States, Kazan/Crimea (steppe nations generally) over Japan. Japan was way too isolated in comparison, whereas all those were foils for T1 nations at various times.

 

[Andrew4250]

You guys you're forgetting the most obvious one. The grand 'ol US of A /sarcasm

Though I think it will probably be a switching one for the emperor of the HRE who can have many many bonuses and special events.

 

[king of AR]

Can Khmer be tier 3 and not just lumped in with tier 4 ? am I the only one that likes to take small mostly pathetic nations and see what i can do with them ?

 

[lordreaven448]

I hope Crimea gets a little lovin'. As well as Genoa.

 

[Grubnessul]

I hope Crimea gets a little lovin'. As well as Genoa.

What did the Crimea Khanate do to make them different from the other hordes?

 

[DanubianCossak]

What did the Crimea Khanate do to make them different from the other hordes?

I believe they came out to be the strongest country in Eastern Europe (militarily) for some (short) time, even burning down Moscow unless i confused them with someone else. But later on they became vassals of Ottoman Empire though.

 

[Chamboozer]

I believe they came out to be the strongest country in Eastern Europe (militarily) for some (short) time, even burning down Moscow unless i confused them with someone else. But later on they became vassals of Ottoman Empire though.

This is true, and they were the state with the best shot at reuniting the Golden Horde.

 

[Raph]

Can Khmer be tier 3 and not just lumped in with tier 4 ? am I the only one that likes to take small mostly pathetic nations and see what i can do with them ?

Lack of special events wouldn't stop you from doing that though?

 

[Captain Gars]

Tiers have nothing to do with game mechanics like in Victoria - it's purely a way for us to group them when we design events and missions.

 

[Homero]

The so called Manila Galleons started their voyages at the same time the conquering of the Philippines finished (in 1565)

Right, the Spanish Pacific-Indian link started in 1565, as i already mentioned. The Atlantic /Indian link was discharged exclusively by the Portuguese for almost a hundred years (1500/1597)
In fact,the Portuguese Empire (Americas ,1500, Africa, 1415, East, 1500) was the first empire "on which the sun never set".
Edit, a date

 

[king of AR]

Lack of special events wouldn't stop you from doing that though?

No but they had little things like the Angkor Wat which doesn't add a lot but little extras like that wouldn't hurt but also wouldn't be Essential either just a little extra flavor.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Tiers have nothing to do with game mechanics like in Victoria - it's purely a way for us to group them when we design events and missions.

Doesn't make it any less fun to speculate on which countries you put into which tier

I think Crimea should be tier 2 or 3. It lasted against both the PLC and Russia for the entire period, and were how the Ottomans projected their power north.

 

[n000b]

Tiers have nothing to do with game mechanics like in Victoria - it's purely a way for us to group them when we design events and missions.

Was wondering, is those dynamic events going to be the only thing making a country feel unique from others, or will there be special mechanics tied to countries or regions in the game? I would just love to see more difference mechanic wise between Western Europe vs Eastern Europe vs Middle East vs Asia. What You did with divine wind was awesome, new mechanics and rules for Japan, Ming and The Hordes, those countries really offered an entirely new way of playing the game, adding very much flavor. Although playing as a Horde was a painfull experience

Edit: Muslim countries for example was very much similar to Christians in eu3, it would be nice to see them get something else that makes them more unique, other than tech groups.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

I believe they came out to be the strongest country in Eastern Europe (militarily) for some (short) time, even burning down Moscow unless i confused them with someone else. But later on they became vassals of Ottoman Empire though.

The Crimean Khanate was a vassal of the Ottomans for most of its heyday. It was just a very limited form of vassalage where they were more like allies but the Khan considered the Sultan his superior, but not quite his boss.

The Crimean Khanate was also quite cultured, with the largest Islamic School of the day being in the Crimea.