The big 8 - and the lesser 8

[unmerged(63836)]

Not hoping im being too nationalistic narrowminded when I say this, but imo Denmark being the leader of the Kalmar union at game start and controlling trade through the baltic in large periods of the game, thus a big regional player, should get a place in tier 2. Or am I completely off here?

Other than that your list seems good

You're right. Highly doubt that Teutonic Order would be that high. They were already declined state on the brink of collapse in 1444.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

I would say Ming/Qing will be Tier 2, if only because:
1. A lot of the eastern trade routes originate in China. European wealth is built significantly on trade in Chinese goods.
2. It's very difficult to prevent China taking over the whole map.
3. It's also very difficult (with above) to prevent all kinds of other countries from taking bits of China.
4. China's retreat inwards set the scene allowing Europeans to dominate South and South East Asia. This requires special attention to China, as China, due to it's size, interacts with many other countries.

So China needs some special attention to get the game running right.

However, Japan would be tier 3.

Only two other Asian states strike me as important:
1. Safavid Persia
2. Mughal Empire.

I could see either being "Tier 2", particularly Persia. Any country that spent a lot of the game's time in conflict with a tier 1 should be tier 2, and the Safavids fit the bill. Safavids are certainly more important then Teutonic order, and even the Mamluks.

 

[Niptium]

The more I think about it, the more I read into the line of thought of the developers . The more I think the Netherlands are in the tier 1 and Brandenburg would be shoved in the second tier.

 

[Comrade Chaos]

Another vote for tier 2 Safavids.

 

[Ruwaard]

I would swear it was his son, Philippe II, the one who really achieved that shrotly after becoming King (with the Philippine islands). Although i might be mistaken.

Though it too was Philip II, alienated the Netherlands and due to his policies started a revolt there. Very exaggerated one could say that Charles V was our emperor, but his son was our foreign king.

Regarding Burgundy being third tier, the Northern & Southern Netherlands both are heirs of Burgundy, which united the Low Countries. Especially Charles V still felt a connection with Burgundy.

Regarding alternate history, well being from Brabant, which golden age was roughly ended by the Dutch Revolt and ended up being divided between the Dutch Republic as a secondary Generality Land (I like my ancestors am from North Brabant) and 'Spain'; so not surprisingly my goal is to keep the Burgundian Netherlands intact (either as a monarchy or a republic).

 

[Homero]

..a country on which the sun never set

Well, Charles ruled the Spanish Empire from 1519 until 1556. The Emperor had a large empire in Europe and in the Americas, but not in the east.
The Philippines was obtained by Spain in 1565 (Miguel López de Legazpi). The Portuguese conquest of Goa occurred in 1510. For a hundred years the link between the oceans was discharged almost exclusively by Portuguese (1500/1590)
Number of ships sailing to Asia from European countries: 1500–1599, Portugal: 705 ships. Other European countries: 0

 

[Camara]

Number of ships sailing to Asia from European countries: 1500–1599, Portugal: 705 ships. Other European countries: 0

That's not completely true, France sent a ship to Sumatra in the 1520s and the Dutch started to sent some in the 1590s IIRC.

Still of course orders of magnitude below Portugal.

 

[n000b]

The more I think about it, the more I read into the line of thought of the developers . The more I think the Netherlands are in the tier 1 and Brandenburg would be shoved in the second tier.

Well personally I hope more for Brandenburg/Prussia in tier 1, mainly becouse some of my best games in eu3 were the Brandenburg -> Prussia route. Prussia in Paradox games is generally guarenteed epicness and great fun.

 

[Camara]

I'm not sure about Brandenburg only because historically it takes a while for it to become seriously relevant. The Netherlands are in the same situation, but "appear" earlier.

 

[Homero]

That's not completely true, France sent a ship to Sumatra in the 1520s and the Dutch started to sent some in the 1590s IIRC.

Correct, 1597, not 1599.
The Dutch: Houtman´s exploratory voyage, 1597. During the next 5 years, 70 Dutch ships departed to Asia; the most successfull voyage was the 1598-1600 expedition of Van Neck.I said almost exclusively (and the number excludes Spanish ships trading with Asia via the Pacific from Acapulco)
Source: Magalhães Godinho, Os Descobrimentos e a Economia Mundial. Also cited by Angus Maddisson in The World Economy, volume 1, A Millennial perspective.

 

[Chamboozer]

Kind of. What they did was control the Indian Ocean so thoroughly that everyone there had to deal through, or at least, with, them. They didn't do this through the kind of combat we end up seeing in EUIII (& II, & I) Rather it was by a combination of a few bases, naval supremacy, and demi-official privateers preying on everyone else. But they weren't besieging everyone's capitals, as we see now.

I have hopes that the new trade system will allow something like this. The real situation was more like a forced trade league.

And BTW, the old routes were faster (if the volumes were low), but land transport is inherently inefficient. Granted, the sea route was dangerous, but so was land.

Yes, exactly, I just classified their control of the Indian Ocean as being a part of their military power. I too hope this will be simulated in the trade system but fear that Paradox might just make the trade automatically shift to the Atlantic route, as if it were inherently better.

 

[unmerged(237193)]

Another vote for tier 2 Safavids.

I third this, in order to have a properly functioning Ottoman Empire, a tier one country, you need the Safavids as a foil to them in the east as they historically were otherwise you're carefully planned tier one Ottomans won't work.

The Mughals are most likely a tier 2 or 3 as well, because in order to have a somewhat historical India you need them to have a state which rarely happened in EU 3.

Hopefully this time around both will have DHE's and the Safavids will be called Safavids and not be a theocracy and the Mughals will form and have the correct flag.

 

[Evie HJ]

But who says that Paradox consider a historical India (or China) important to the game? As Johan would say, it's Europa. Sure, they'll want to avoid blatantly bad things like Chinese rampages...but I doubt they care much further.

(As the guy behind Age of Discovery, you can rest assured that I disagree with the philosophy, but I don't expect Paradox to change it).

 

[unmerged(237193)]

But who says that Paradox consider a historical India (or China) important to the game? As Johan would say, it's Europa. Sure, they'll want to avoid blatantly bad things like Chinese rampages...but I doubt they care much further.

I understand what you mean about Johan's philosophy, although I also disagree with it, I just feel that they'll probably give the Safavids Mughals and Chinese a little bit of love because if those three countries play out historically they can ignore the rest of Asia while still having a decently historically looking map and they do view the Ottoman empire as a vital part of the game its capital was even in Europe and for a properly functioning Ottoman Empire you need the Safavids as an eastern counter to the Ottomans.

Hopefully while this is "EUROPA" as Johan would say they'll value these countries enough to give them a few DHE's because together the Gunpowder Empires and China concentrate a large amount of history and territory in a small number of tags.

 

[polskaGOLA]

I never understood why Paradox didn't try to expand India to the level of Europe in any expansion of EU ever. It is easily possible, the mechanics shouldn't be difficult to research and implement like it is in East Asian countries, and India is as fun to play in as European countries if you ever tried some quality India mods in the mod forum. (Like Deg Tegh Fateh)

Not to mention that India is more relevant to Europe, as well as to most players playing European countries in game.

 

[Niptium]

I'm not sure about Brandenburg only because historically it takes a while for it to become seriously relevant. The Netherlands are in the same situation, but "appear" earlier.

+1

 

[Ydrgn]

Something to Germany or the "German Influenced Area of Europe". Countries within this part of Europe should have special dynamic events, depending on their common cultural heritage.
Some may say that there was no german nationalism in this era, but i would say, because Napoleons Wars and Conquests were the beginning of the German Nationalism, and because EU is a series in which conquest is the main part of the game, Germany or its states, should be in the first tier.Perhaps along with Austria. Its Nationalism could rise through foreign Intervention and Conquest (There were first steps of the development of Nationalism after the 30-years war). Its pretty clear that despite from Austria, and later Prussia, no German State was a "great power", but the Germans in general and the HRE were very important for the development of Europe, I see them in one line with the french, english and iberians.

So, Germany should be a focus, and in tier 1.

 

[brifbates]

My guesses/suggestions:

t1:

Austria
Castille/Spain
England
France
Muscovy/Russia
Ottoman Empire
Portugal

I think these are all no-brainer selections. The eighth slot depends a lot on how Euro-centric the development is going to be. Realistically Ming/China should be a t1 type nation as they will greatly influence what happens in Asia. If the driving forces are going to be Euro-centric then probably Sweden.

Next tier would be

Sweden/Ming
Brandenburg/Prussia
Poland
Persia
Holland/Netherlands
Denmark
Venice
(Indian nation)
Japan

The last two to help balance the world map some and because I really can't come up with more European nations that were real driving forces of history during the EU time frame. Netherlands is somewhat problematic to consider as t1 (IMO) unless you assume it is going to be formed by x nation and give missions and the like similar to the Mus->Rus chain with the obvious issue being that it is ridiculously ahistoric. Putting a primary focus into content for a revolter state seems unlikely to me. I also don't see a t1 slot for Burgundy, Byz, and (to a much lesser extent) PLC due to the obvious unlucky status for being wiped off the map. Since Poland was around for most of the period and is important in keeping the horde in check I can see it being a t2.

 

[No idea]

The Philippines was obtained by Spain in 1565 (Miguel López de Legazpi). The Portuguese conquest of Goa occurred in 1510. For a hundred years the link between the oceans was discharged almost exclusively by Portuguese (1500/1590)
Number of ships sailing to Asia from European countries: 1500–1599, Portugal: 705 ships. Other European countries: 0

Well, researching a bit further I read that the conquering of the Philippines (so named in honour of the still crown PRINCE Philippe) started during the reing of Charles, even if it concluded during Phillipe one.

Regarding links between the oceans, it´s not right. The so called Manila Galleons started their voyages at the same time the conquering of the Philippines finished (in 1565). They linked Manila with Acapulco and what nowadays is Puerto Vallarta. From them, cargo (asian products) and mail was taken to Veracruz through land, and then, to Spain (to be more exact, Seville). At the same time a similar but contrary voyage took place, galleons from Spain (Seville) would bring european products and mail to Veracruz, took them via land to Acapulco and Puerto Vallarta, and then to the Philippines. The whole trip took around a year. The Manila-Acapulco-Manila trade lane was one of the longest ever.

 

[4TyStigma]

well I will guess that it is probably something like this:

t1
Austria
England
Brandenburg
Ottomans
Portugal
Castille
Muscowy
France

t2
Sweden
Denmark
Poland
Venice
Holland
Persia
Japan
Ming
Mughals