The Biblical God - Evolution or Revolution?

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bz249

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Augustine of Hippo and other Christian theologians formalized it, but the conceptual root of the doctrine of original sin is an integral part of the teachings of Paul of Tarsus:

Without Adam's fall "mysteriously" affecting the nature of all humans, there's no need for redemption through the risen Christ, according to Pauline theology. Augustine of Hippo and others merely developed this original thread into a full-bodied doctrine.

It should be said that before Paul of Tarsus, Jewish religious scholars attached little or no importance to Adam's sin; and the notion of "original sin" is totally alien to Judaism. Most probably, Paul developed on his own an ancient idea, present in ancient Judaism and ancient polytheist religions (both Semitic and Graeco-Roman) that the son inherited the sin of the father, and that of collective guilt and collective punishment by the gods (or YHWH). Although in doing so he was shooting himself in the foot by downgrading the notion of divine Justice and the value of the Last Judgement as the trial of an individual soul by God for his/her own sins. There's a good reason why neither Judaism, nor Islam, nor some Christian churches ever accepted this notion.

It makes perfect sense from the historical context (at least for Paul) the Jew were living in a Jewish state, the Muslims were living in an Islamic state. Thus there is no conflict between earthly/secular and heavenly/canon law. Early Christians were living in a non-Christian state, thus they needed an "excuse" why they are not purists. An the concept of original sins (no matter what you do you have sins) and the redemption through the belief in Christ offered exactly that. It was also allowed greater reach for the missionary work, since suddenly all men become equal irrespective of their actions and characters.

(later on they had to refine the thing when they become the ruling elite)
 

nerd

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Won't anyone consider the fact that G*d is real and he sent his only son to earth to die for our sins?
well of course we have. we considered it. Then most of us moved on.:)
 

nerd

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With what evidence can you say it is untrue?
when have i EVER said it was untrue?
i am an agnoapatheist.
i hold that there is no value in ASKING if god exist, as no evidence pro or con has ever been produced, and we have no way to aquire any. additionally, the answer, even if knowable, has no value to me or how i live.

so.......i don't know if god exist, i don't care if god exists.

my ONLY concern regarding a putative god is how belief in god(s) affects the behaviour of those believers.


regardless, the onus of proof always lies with the proponent.
 

Barsoom

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Won't anyone consider the fact that G*d is real and he sent his only son to earth to die for our sins?
In what way would that clarify the textual history of the Bible?
 

nerd

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Is not the word of an omnipotent, omnisecent and benevolent being enough for you? If G*d is real than The Bible is his word and, ergo, The Bible is factual.
If
 

bz249

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Won't anyone consider the fact that G*d is real and he sent his only son to earth to die for our sins?

Ok so far so good... the difficult part is that you need a marketing plan to sell this product (i.e. the salvation) to the utter dumbest morons of an ancient society. Remember Christ did not died for well educated (the New Testament has a paragraph here or there on the topic).

After that point you can put all the social stuff, because it is all about delivering the message to the broader society.

One thin more: while God is portrayed as a micromanager in the Old Testament there is a more laisser-faire picture in the later works (and a healthy dose of Suspension of disbelief required for a literal and not allegoric Interpretation of the OT)
 

Barsoom

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Is not the word of an omnipotent, omnisecent and benevolent being enough for you? If G*d is real than The Bible is his word and, ergo, The Bible is factual.
No, it's not. Even if God were real, it isn't clear that the Bible was written by him rather than about him. The latter possibility is distinctly more likely if you consider that the book has different layers of composition.
 

SirNat

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Yes, I was raised as a Catholic and I'm aware of the notion of original sin. Which again is not accepted by all Abrahamic religions, as I wrote above the Quran rejects it expressly, and for once I think that from an internally logical point of view, that position makes much more sense than the notion of original sin. If one is born carrying an inherited sin, what's the point of being judged in the Day of Judgement? Even if one made no sinning in life, that sin would be there anyway. Augustine of Hippo carried this doctrine to the extreme and even in his time he awoke some very heated answers from other Christians, like Priscillian, later condemned as an heretic at Augustine's instigation.

I don't want to offend anybody, but from a purely theological point of view, and within an Abrahamic doctrinal frame, sustaining the doctrine of free will on one side and then the doctrine of original sin on another makes very little sense to me. I think that they make little sense each on their own, but combined, it's even worse. It makes God look like a sadistic creator who enjoys watching the spectacle from above (my personal opinion).

What is being judged at the Day of Judgement is not whether we have actually sinned or not but rather whether we have accepted Christ as our saviour. Paul makes this abundantly clear throughout his letters. Salvation comes through Christ, it does not come through a sinless life because by nature humans are sinful beings. Our freedom is whether we want to willingly submit to Christ or not. Many have too much pride in their hearts to take such a decision.

I disagree that it makes God look like a sadistic creator. He loves us and wants that love to reciprocated. Crucially not in a forced robotic sense of love where we have no choice but rather a free willful love that accepts him for who he is as our Creator. Irenaean theodicy largely resonates with me although I don't believe that we collectively as a human race develop morally but rather just individually.

Fundamentally though I do not think we can get very far trying to understand the reasoning of God.
 

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It makes perfect sense from the historical context (at least for Paul) the Jew were living in a Jewish state, the Muslims were living in an Islamic state. Thus there is no conflict between earthly/secular and heavenly/canon law. Early Christians were living in a non-Christian state, thus they needed an "excuse" why they are not purists. An the concept of original sins (no matter what you do you have sins) and the redemption through the belief in Christ offered exactly that. It was also allowed greater reach for the missionary work, since suddenly all men become equal irrespective of their actions and characters.

(later on they had to refine the thing when they become the ruling elite)

In Jewish and Muslim polities there's always been a constant (and sometimes extreme) tension between religious law and secular authority; the Palestine of Jesus' times was such an example, with the Zealots denouncing constantly all the ways in which the Roman puppet rulers or the direct Roman rule were against the Law.

If anything, what Paul achieved (consciously or unconsciously, that I can't say) was a doctrinal framework that tried to avoid open clashes with the Roman political, social and legal order. Hence in the Epistle to Timothy, his telling to slaves to be patient and endure their fate (in Paul's own words, what merit does it have to endure a good master in God's eyes?; later Augustine of Hippo retook that line of thinking and applied it to women in abusive marriages), even if their owners were cruel to them. And his repeated admonitions to the several Christian communities he adressed to be respectful of established authorities.
 

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What is being judged at the Day of Judgement is not whether we have actually sinned or not but rather whether we have accepted Christ as our saviour. Paul makes this abundantly clear throughout his letters. Salvation comes through Christ, it does not come through a sinless life because by nature humans are sinful beings. Our freedom is whether we want to willingly submit to Christ or not. Many have too much pride in their hearts to take such a decision.

I disagree that it makes God look like a sadistic creator. He loves us and wants that love to reciprocated. Crucially not in a forced robotic sense of love where we have no choice but rather a free willful love that accepts him for who he is as our Creator. Irenaean theodicy largely resonates with me although I don't believe that we collectively as a human race develop morally but rather just individually.

The Day of Judgement is precisely that, a judgement by the Supreme Judge and Creator. And Jesus himself in the Gospels stresses it; for example, in the Sermon of the Mountain, or in his sayings about how the rich won't inherit the Kingdom of God, etc.

The notion of salvation through faith in the Risen Christ is a Pauline interpretation, and is indeed the key point in Paul's theology, and thus in the theology of almost all Christian groups ever since. But that was not the original meaning of the Day of Judgement among the Jews (Pharisees and Essenes to be precise, Saducees denied the doctrine of the Last Judgement and eternal life) in Jesus' timeline, and the Gospels reflect that; Jews and Muslims have also kept the original meaning in their traditions.

But in my opinion, it's all quite convoluted. "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive". This are Paul's own words (1 Corinthians 15:22). If there's a need for redemption through faith in the Risen Christ, there's a cause that made that need for redemption to be there in the first place. And that cause is Adam's fall, the original sin. But then, why on earth is a Last Judgement necessary? For theatricals' sake? Deeds can be judged, but not faith (if anything, perhaps it can be measured?). And if one has faith or one hasn't, only God can know it. And He will know it without the need for any spectacular show trial. To me, it makes little sense.

Fundamentally though I do not think we can get very far trying to understand the reasoning of God.

In that, we completely agree.
 

bz249

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In Jewish and Muslim polities there's always been a constant (and sometimes extreme) tension between religious law and secular authority; the Palestine of Jesus' times was such an example, with the Zealots denouncing constantly all the ways in which the Roman puppet rulers or the direct Roman rule were against the Law.

If anything, what Paul achieved (consciously or unconsciously, that I can't say) was a doctrinal framework that tried to avoid open clashes with the Roman political, social and legal order. Hence in the Epistle to Timothy, his telling to slaves to be patient and endure their fate (in Paul's own words, what merit does it have to endure a good master in God's eyes?; later Augustine of Hippo retook that line of thinking and applied it to women in abusive marriages), even if their owners were cruel to them. And his repeated admonitions to the several Christian communities he adressed to be respectful of established authorities.

Yes but when those religions were "established" they had a top-down model, the religious elite was also the social elite of the respective political entity... Christianity was on the other hand a bottom up thingy the membership consisted (mostly) of the powerless part of the Roman society. Thus they needed a solution, which allowed peaceful coexistence with the Roman authority, set the bar low enough to attract enough people, yet made them distincitive enough.

Salvation through faith (and only faith) is an excellent solution for the problem ;)
 

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Yes but when those religions were "established" they had a top-down model, the religious elite was also the social elite of the respective political entity... Christianity was on the other hand a bottom up thingy the membership consisted (mostly) of the powerless part of the Roman society. Thus they needed a solution, which allowed peaceful coexistence with the Roman authority, set the bar low enough to attract enough people, yet made them distincitive enough.

Salvation through faith (and only faith) is an excellent solution for the problem ;)
It may be an excellent solution, but it's also clearly not an undisputed Christian thing.

There's a reason it's one of the Sola's defining protestantism.
 

cacra

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No, it's not. Even if God were real, it isn't clear that the Bible was written by him rather than about him. The latter possibility is distinctly more likely if you consider that the book has different layers of composition.
If G*d is omnipotent then everything that happens is because he allowed it.
 

Barsoom

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If G*d is omnipotent then everything that happens is because he allowed it.
That's not an answer. Considering everything else God allowed, do you have any specific reason why God wouldn't have allowed the Bible to be composed by human hand?
 

bz249

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That's not an answer. Considering everything else God allowed, do you have any specific reason why God wouldn't have allowed the Bible to be composed by human hand?

Especially that we know that multiple languages exist on the world and one-to-one translation is not really possible (especially in cases like ancient Aramic and modern English).
 

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Is not the word of an omnipotent, omnisecent and benevolent being enough for you? If G*d is real than The Bible is his word and, ergo, The Bible is factual.
God told me that you're wrong.
 

Semper Victor

Šahān Šāh Ērān ud Anērān
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Yes but when those religions were "established" they had a top-down model, the religious elite was also the social elite of the respective political entity... Christianity was on the other hand a bottom up thingy the membership consisted (mostly) of the powerless part of the Roman society. Thus they needed a solution, which allowed peaceful coexistence with the Roman authority, set the bar low enough to attract enough people, yet made them distincitive enough.

Salvation through faith (and only faith) is an excellent solution for the problem ;)

That implies a conscious will by Paul's to start a sort of cult with shady intentions. I've read theories defending that position, and I find them quite unconvincing. In my opinion, what emerges from the lecture of Paul's undisputed epistles is a man who was sincere in his beliefs, as they were based in some sort of deeply personal, mysthical experiences ("visions") that for Paul had been entirely real. He attributed them to the (by then) dead Jesus of Nazareth, and became convinced that as he'd been the only man who the Risen Christ had talked directly to after his "earthly" death in his divine epiphany, that his version of Jesus' message was "superior" to the one known by those who had known Jesus in the flesh, during his "earthly" life (basically the original apostles and their followers, by then still centered in Jerusalem and led by Peter/Cephas and James the Just).

His epistles reflect Paul's somewhat unsuccessful attempt at bridging the chasm between his understanding of Christ's message as "revealed" to him in his visions (deeply innovative and which marked a radical break from Judaism) and the earthly Jesus' preachings as still recalled and recorded by the Jerusalem community, who considered Jesus and themselves still as Jews, and as bound to the observation of the Law as understood by the Pharisaic tradition (with an oral Torah which complemented the written Torah of the Scriptures), and to the Final Judgement as preached by Pharisaic and Essene rabbis.

The extension of God's grace and the possibly of salvation from eternal damnation in the Last Judgement, which Pharisees and Essenes believed was restricted strictly to Jews, was extended by Paul to all mankind, but probably not as part of a cynical marketing plot, but because Paul, having been born in a cosmopolitan Greek.speaking town in Cilicia and having lived all his life among gentiles and knowing Greek culture and philosophy, was a man of less provincial leanings than the original apostles (and Jesus) who, for all we know, had never left Palestine and were only interested in Jewish culture and religion. Contrary to them, Paul probably felt more at home in Ephesus, Antiochia or Corinth than in Jerusalem.