The best way to simulate elite divisions

[Van Diemen]

I have a simple question: What's the best way to simulate elite divisions in the game (like the Soviet Guard/German SS)?

1) By adding extra divisions that can only be given to you by event. For example add an extra mountaineer division type and modify this one. The downside however is that they cannot be upgraded and that the stats will become lesser against compariable divisions and may be overrated at the beginning of the game.

2) By using one of the brigades and mod that one to elites. By using the Super heavy tank brigade for example. Now you can add more brigade types, which allow you to form upgrades. The downside is that people could remove an by event aquired brigade (with division) and add it to other units. Furthermore you loose the flavor of the division model.

3) Some other way I'm not aware of?

I hope you can give me some advise in this.

 

[Luxor]

Add a regular division via event with more experience. It will perform much better in combat and it will upgrade as regular units.

 

[Van Diemen]

Add a regular division via event with more experience. It will perform much better in combat and it will upgrade as regular units.

That's a nice option that I have already considered. The problem is that I want the division to be unique (different picture etc.) and not a better version of an already buildable division type. They should have for example better morale and organization (they are more fanatic than normal troops). Thanks for your suggestion though.

 

[Luxor]

That's a nice option that I have already considered. The problem is that I want the division to be unique (different picture etc.) and not a better version of an already buildable division type. They should have for example better morale and organization (they are more fanatic than normal troops). Thanks for your suggestion though.

You want better morale and org for better combat performance, I suppose. You get the same with high EXP, if you know how that is computed into combat resolution.

 

[Vladimir Pavlov]

Well.. for example, you use marine 7 for eliteforces 38, marine 8 for eliteforces 41 and marine 9 for eliteforces 44. Techs make them available for building, so that they'll upgrade, but incredibly long time of training would make that impossible... something like that..

 

[Van Diemen]

Well.. for example, you use marine 7 for eliteforces 38, marine 8 for eliteforces 41 and marine 9 for eliteforces 44. Techs make them available for building, so that they'll upgrade, but incredibly long time of training would make that impossible... something like that..

One question though, wouldn't making them available for upgrade , upgrade all other normal marine divisions towards the elite ones? For example upgrade the marine 1 towards marine 7, when you active marine 7 for building.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

One question though, wouldn't making them available for upgrade , upgrade all other normal marine divisions towards the elite ones? For example upgrade the marine 1 towards marine 7, when you active marine 7 for building.

Yes it would,... I dont really think there is a credible way around this problem however.

 

[Van Diemen]

Yes it would,... I dont really think there is a credible way around this problem however.

However I do noticed that if you research turbojet interceptors and haven't researched rocket interceptors the lvl 5 advanced interceptors will never upgrade towards turbojet (lvl 8) interceptors before you have researched all the rocket interceptor techs (lvl 6 and lvl 7). So maybe that could hold a way around the problem, however I'm afraid that this will in fact too leave the elites not upgradable.

 

[mebethekoko]

Well.. for example, you use marine 7 for eliteforces 38, marine 8 for eliteforces 41 and marine 9 for eliteforces 44. Techs make them available for building, so that they'll upgrade, but incredibly long time of training would make that impossible... something like that..

The problem with this is that the AI would try to build those elite divisions any time they tried to build Marine divisions. The AI always builds the highest unit model available to them.

You'd want to have the elite divisions in the 0, 1, 3 slots, and move the regular Marine Divisions after them. That would in turn require you to change all the Marine divisions in the scenario files.

 

[Van Diemen]

The problem with this is that the AI would try to build those elite divisions any time they tried to build Marine divisions. The AI always builds the highest unit model available to them.

You'd want to have the elite divisions in the 0, 1, 3 slots, and move the regular Marine Divisions after them. That would in turn require you to change all the Marine divisions in the scenario files.

Would it work if I would make the following model setup?

Example marines:
Original HoI2 model/modded models
Mar 0, Mar 1, Mar 2 /elite 0, elite 1, elite 2

Mar 3>>>> none (unavailable for building)

Mar 4, Mar 5, Mar 6 (add), Mar 7 (add), Mar 8 (add)/Mar 0, Mar 1, Mar 2, Mar 3, Mar 4, Mar 5

Will Mar 0 correctly upgrade to Mar 1 while the gap exists and the techs are both known?

In short: make the first 3 models elite, don't use Mar model 3 to keep the space open and hold the usual marines from slot 4 and onwards. Also keep the elites and marines activated for building simultaneously.

 

[Vladimir Pavlov]

Will Mar 0 correctly upgrade to Mar 1 while the gap exists and the techs are both known?

In short: make the first 3 models elite, don't use Mar model 3 to keep the space open and hold the usual marines from slot 4 and onwards. Also keep the elites and marines activated for building simultaneously.

Yeah, that should work. We have some mechanics like this one in FoDD, and it works...

 

[unmerged(93067)]

which division do u not want. for example, u can rename cavalry and change them around alot to make them into SS divisions

 

[Van Diemen]

I will try my suggestion and post the results when finished.

As for the cavalry argument: I don't want to loose them, they can be useful early in the game before motorised infantry becomes available. Furthermore I want them to have some special abilities too, like marines, bergsjaeger, airbornes etc.

 

[Van Diemen]

On second thoughts, maybe the brigade like elite model is better. Otherwise I will have to change the names of the pictures for every marine model and every country too, and that is something I'm not going to do.

I will just replace the super heavy tanks for elite forces, thank you all for your contribute.

 

[Gormadoc]

the millitia unit file are well suited to use as Elite unit file. Just remember that militia model 0 is used for rebels. So you could use model 2 to 9 as elites.

TRP uses the above mentioned method, with Elites as model 0 to X with the regular units being model X+2 to 9.

 

[Van Diemen]

the millitia unit file are well suited to use as Elite unit file. Just remember that militia model 0 is used for rebels. So you could use model 2 to 9 as elites.

TRP uses the above mentioned method, with Elites as model 0 to X with the regular units being model X+2 to 9.

Thanks, but how would you solve the fact that some elite divisions where armored and others motorized or even on foot. Maybe the brigade system is indeed better suited to add a brigade as: "Elite training", this will of course not come cheap though and it would be far better to wait and get events that trigger more elites. I will of course modify the upgrade cost so that upgrading them will not be so costly. Furthermore I will mod all the remaining models so that only armored, mechanized, motorized, marine, airborne and mountaineers can use the elite brigade. This will prevent switching them to for example infantry, however it will of course leave enough nice switching options for the player sadly to abuse the system.

 

[Van Diemen]

By the way does anyone know names for elite designated divisions of the following countries that can be compared in scope to that of the Soviet Guard and German Waffen SS?
- Great Britain/commonwealth
- USA
- Italy
- Japan
- France

 

[Gormadoc]

Thanks, but how would you solve the fact that some elite divisions where armored and others motorized or even on foot. Maybe the brigade system is indeed better suited to add a brigade as: "Elite training", this will of course not come cheap though and it would be far better to wait and get events that trigger more elites. I will of course modify the upgrade cost so that upgrading them will not be so costly. Furthermore I will mod all the remaining models so that only armored, mechanized, motorized, marine, airborne and mountaineers can use the elite brigade. This will prevent switching them to for example infantry, however it will of course leave enough nice switching options for the player sadly to abuse the system.

Add the divisions as dormant to the inc files as TRP does and then activate them by event. No possibility for abuse, since players will only get the divisions designated in Inc files. They are not available for production, so players cant build them, and thereby creating numerous elite divisions.

In my opinion the socalled Elite divisions where mostly Elite due to the fact they where getting the most modern equibment before anyone else & perhaps combined with a higher degree of fanaticism for the cause.

So in this regard the allied died not really have Elite divisions as such. Specially selected & trained soldiers where in general Paratropers, but that where true, for all countries and should be already visible in paratrooper units stats.

Japan had the Imperial Guards division, which where considered to be the best/Elite. But again it where mostly due to experience fanaticism and getting the newest equibment. Which could very well be modelled by giving the division additional experience.

Though having these division with their own specific counters as in TRP, do add some roleplay and flavour to the game.

 

[Van Diemen]

In my opinion the socalled Elite divisions where mostly Elite due to the fact they where getting the most modern equibment before anyone else & perhaps combined with a higher degree of fanaticism for the cause.

Well, perhaps not the best example, but the Waffen SS did receive a harder training than the regular army. Furthermore there was a selection on who could and who couldn't be trained. It was only later in the war that the Waffen SS began to show some cracks, but so was the regular army.

 

[Antiochus V]

Another alternative is to role-play slightly and use existing game mechanics.

-Arguably the qualities of an elite division are high experience and good equipment and access to support.

Experience comes from fighting. Thus a unit that has fought many battles might be renamed to a 'guards' division (I believe the soviets did this). To reflect its new status it can be given priority for upgrades, and could have some sort of brigade added to make it more potent.

Modification wise very little is required with this approach for a human player. An 'elite brigade' might be a way of adding the 'difference', and would be not be especially intrusive. However it is not possible to then add normal brigades.

The problem with adding elite units is that the designation of SS did not always imply quality, there were top quality SS and regular units, but there were also poor quality units of both.