The best "hidden feature" of HoI2?

[Alexander Seil]

Methinks that defining governments without lands is the best. Apparently some of the provinces went unused and were never put on the map (some are at the end of province.csv, for example), but it is possible to define countries that own and use said provinces. You can even have those nations show up in the diplo. screen by area if you define the region for the province (you can also add edit adjacencies to make it possible for them to move units from their "alternate dimension" into the "physical world" ).

The use is obvious - governments in exile and obscure puppet regimes with no territories! I know that TRP has SS units, but I'm not sure how they handle it - perhaps through a similar mechanism. At any rate, with this nifty little feature I believe it should be possible to create governments in exile for various countries - Poland (maybe even have a proper government in exile and an umbrella government for Polish units in the Red Army? ), Committee for the Liberation of Peoples of Russia (KONR, the umbrella government for Vlasov's ROA), Provisional Government of Free India, the possibilities are seemingly endless. These governments can be made to produce and deploy units without any territory needed, through events or by giving them free IC and resources. This is also exceedingly handy for simulating regimes that technically controlled land but for gameplay purposes should not - Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia, puppet regimes in Slovenia and Serbia, etc. And do not forget the partisan "nations" that can be created using this simple trick - Titoists, Chetniks, UPA. If I get it right and these provinces really do not serve any purpose in game (I do not see how, seeing how they are unnamed and are not assigned to any region), this could be used for any number of mind-boggling mods :wacko:

The most interesting use for these are partisans. Currently the "Rebels" make for a poor representation for these forces (fighting in Yugoslavia was continuous through 1941-1945) and their political fortunes, since the Rebels are always at war with everyone (no British transports dropping supplies off ). It is possible to define adjacency from a province (let's call it "The Underground") to some provs in Yugoslavia and give Chetniks and Titoists free IC/resources and let them loose. How is this different from giving Chetniks/Titoists provinces within Yugoslavia on the map? Very simple - we can make it VERY hard to take those provinces without actually screwing up the game balance - multiple static units+forts and a victory point in an empty nonadjacent province perhaps? Once Yugoslavia is overrun, the placeholder nation (which can be "hidden" by putting its capital into a nonadjacent free province, making it impossible for humans to DOW it) morphs into either faction. Or you could dispose of that placeholder nation altogether and allow Yugoslav units to "hide" in "The Underground", making said units defect to Chetniks and/or Titoists depending on the political disposition of the Yugoslav government immediately prior to annexation.

 

[Lt Hilsdorf]

This is really neat if it could work. I couldn't tell from reading it but you did acutally test this out right? If so and it really works I think that your ideas about partisans could be very interesting. You can give the partisan nation (Yugoslavia like the example you used) a leader list of partisan leaders amd have random revolts in Yugoslavia, with the abilty for them to have leaders. This could be someting to add in some of the major mods, assuming there are no major erros formed in doing so.

 

[Alexander Seil]

A simple test revealed that I could instantiate Russia in 1936 in a "hidden" province in such a way that it still showed up on the European tab of the diplomatic screen. You can also "hide" countries by not defining the continent on which their capital province lies (that's mostly useful for placeholder "nations" or nations you don't want to interact with anyone).

And, no, the unused provinces are all Temperate Ocean with no names or other specifications (no area, region, continent, etc.). There are a couple at the end of the file (true extras) and some in different parts, suggesting that a province or two was probably cut here or there.

My impetus for trying to figure this out is my long-standing interest (not to be realized anytime soon, probably) of making a nice little historical and partly what-if mod concerning German policy in the occupied Soviet territories. Obviously, being able to define KONR and have it order around troops of its own is very interesting. That's where you enter what-if territory, as historically divisional-sized independent formations for the Russian Liberation Army, previously a collection of hundreds of small units within the Wehrmacht (RLA refers pretty much only to Wehrmacht Russian formation, not SS ones) were only formed in 1944 and their only notable action was fighting in Prague against the Germans at the closing days of the war. The what-if part is...what if said troops were better formed, or what if the Allies recognized KONR in a bid to counter the Soviets? Obviously an interesting tie-in with Doomsday...

And, for historical purists, there's always the Polish Government(s) in Exile that fielded so many capable units on both fronts and is currently completely absent from HoI2. Again, the possibilities are endless.

 

[unmerged(49068)]

it is possible to define countries that own and use said provinces. You can even have those nations show up in the diplo. screen by area if you define the region for the province.

If that works someone should make the Vatican, I'm not kidding!

 

[Alexander Seil]

The question is, should the Swiss Guard have attritional (stand and die at the main entrance), maneuver (outflank the enemy using secret passages) or assault (Banzai charge with halberds) doctrines?

 

[unmerged(49068)]

The question is, should the Swiss Guard have attritional (stand and die at the main entrance), maneuver (outflank the enemy using secret passages) or assault (Banzai charge with halberds) doctrines?

Well, of course that depends. If you're modding with history in mind, I say Banzai, all the way. You can never go wrong with Banzai .

Now, I was thinking more in diplomatic terms, I confess. The Vatican was very active before WW2 and sure it had a lot of money to spare.

Just an idea.

 

[Alexander Seil]

That would be actually kind of cool as an easter egg, provided that we can somehow restrain Vatican from entering any silly alliances. I already have some ideas for events and techs -

Excommunication:
If a Catholic country is at war with Vatican it is excommunicated and receives +.00001% dissent hit for every step the government is to the "left"

Also, I'd estimate the interdiction mission efficiency of late-model (1929) Popes at about .2%



On a more serious note, how do you think Governments-in-Exile and Governments-on-Paper (partisans are too complex to tackle for a starter, methinks) should be modelled? I believe that the best way to integrate it smoothly into the game would be to hand these governments separate tags (We've got 20 unused, so one for a Western-sponsored Polish GIE and a Commie one is fine) and keep them "stationed" in isolated provinces with no VPs, with some free IC/resources provided. All techs/units/teams (except for doctrinal researches and doctrines) will be disabled to prevent them from building armies on their own. Then, depending on how pressured Britain is, it may "lend" Poles (or whomever it is that they are supporting) some supplies (to simulate diverted production) and put Polish GIE-controlled units on the map, understrength, forcing the GIE to draw on its manpower pool (which will also be a factor in British decision and dependent on GErman/Soviet policies in Poland, perhaps) and IC to reinforce them, while the British will supply them otherwise. The units then fight alongside the Allies as usual, with some more events to simulate the disagreements over the creation of a new Polish state after the war (if everything goes historically, Soviet-sponsored GIE is given Polish provs and liberates Poland, dissolving itself afterwards). I firmly believe that if any mod is to be made with this, Poland should be a start, since the units were numerous and the whole situation is well-documented.

 

[fudd_bopo]

Is it really possible to have armies going between these provinces not on the map? In case it does, it only works for the AI right?

I like the idea of the alien invasion "cheat" (does this count as a hidden feature?) pretty much, though it could need some improvement.

 

[unmerged(51844)]

Excellent info Alexander. Just Excellent. As you said, the possibilities are endless- this would help so much an AAR I'm writing.

Partisans, Govs-in-Exile, Collaborators- heck even the vatican! Just Excellent.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

On a more serious note, how do you think Governments-in-Exile and Governments-on-Paper (partisans are too complex to tackle for a starter, methinks) should be modelled? I believe that the best way to integrate it smoothly into the game would be to hand these governments separate tags (We've got 20 unused, so one for a Western-sponsored Polish GIE and a Commie one is fine) and keep them "stationed" in isolated provinces with no VPs, with some free IC/resources provided. All techs/units/teams (except for doctrinal researches and doctrines) will be disabled to prevent them from building armies on their own. Then, depending on how pressured Britain is, it may "lend" Poles (or whomever it is that they are supporting) some supplies (to simulate diverted production) and put Polish GIE-controlled units on the map, understrength, forcing the GIE to draw on its manpower pool (which will also be a factor in British decision and dependent on GErman/Soviet policies in Poland, perhaps) and IC to reinforce them, while the British will supply them otherwise. The units then fight alongside the Allies as usual, with some more events to simulate the disagreements over the creation of a new Polish state after the war (if everything goes historically, Soviet-sponsored GIE is given Polish provs and liberates Poland, dissolving itself afterwards). I firmly believe that if any mod is to be made with this, Poland should be a start, since the units were numerous and the whole situation is well-documented.

Ah, all this is very interesting! How many of these provinces exist?

For governments-in-exile I think it would need to be simulated on a case by case basis: eg. some would be best modified by events, some by these hidden provinces and others by alternate ministers/governments for existing tags.

In the case of Poland, it might actually be a good idea to give the POL tag one of these hidden provinces (with VP attached), so that once the country is partitioned between Germany and the Soviet Union, it still 'exists' and fights on the allied side, with troops being sent into Europe via events. This could then be used to simulate the London Government, the Home Army in Poland, and the Free Polish forces fighting in the Middle East, North Africa, Italy, Britain (during the Battle of Britain), and France.

 

[unmerged(49068)]

And let's not forget the Vatican .

 

[unmerged(43424)]

That's a really really bright idea Alexander

Did you actually succeed in creating one of the ghost countries ?

I get some erros in the scenario files

 

[Alexander Seil]

Yes, they are possible, although I did not yet test the mechanics of their behavior. In order for it to work the province has to be made into a land province (all unused ones are Ocean currently), plus I assigned it a continent (for convenience) and a name (not sure on this one).

If a nation is modelled in such a way as to allow it to actually TRAVEL from its "hideout", all you'd need, I *think* would be to select the appropriate unit in the unit tab and manually order it to move (attack : province). If you're travelling to the map itself, you could probably still just click on the map, though. This use would have to be restricted, though, because having these subspace pockets could give rise to all kinds of VERY weird exploits, so I'd prefer events instead.

As for using current tags for government-in-exile, it's not at all viable, by the way. The main reason is convenience - keeping the event chains separate for proper countries and GIEs would go a long way in preventing modder mistakes (no need to sleep unused events, etc.). Second, I'm not too sure if I'd want POL to stay, because then we'd have to start making extensive alterations to current AI event files to prevent GER AI from getting stuck and I'm not particularly fond of that idea. If you use a different tag, however, none of this is necessary and we can concentrate on doing the mod, rather than balancing the vanilla version.

These are the ones I managed to find in province.csv:
223;PROV223;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
224;PROV224;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
291;PROV291;-;-;-;-;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1057;PROV1057;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1168;PROV1168;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1169;PROV1169;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;40;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1173;PROV1173;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1400;PROV1400;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1401;PROV1401;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1402;PROV1402;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1403;PROV1403;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1449;PROV1449;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1595;PROV1595;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1623;PROV1623;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;60;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;15;;;;; ; ;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;
1779;PROV1779;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1810;PROV1810;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1811;PROV1811;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1;;;;
1875;PROV1875;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1876;PROV1876;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1884;PROV1884;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1885;PROV1885;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1886;PROV1886;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1887;PROV1887;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1888;PROV1888;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1889;PROV1889;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1890;PROV1890;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1891;PROV1891;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1892;PROV1892;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1893;PROV1893;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1894;PROV1894;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1895;PROV1895;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1896;PROV1896;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1897;PROV1897;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
1899;PROV1899;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2602;PROV2602;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;;;;;;;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2603;PROV2603;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;;;;;;;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2604;PROV2604;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;;;;;;;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2605;PROV2605;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;;;;;;;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2606;PROV2606;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;0;0;;;;;;;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2607;PROV2607;-;-;Europe;Temperate;Clear;;;100;;0;0;0;;;;;;;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;14976;5760;0;;;;;14976;5760;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1
2608;PROV2608;-;-;-;Temperate;Ocean;;;100;;0;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;-1;-1;-1;-1

2607 I used in my preliminary testing and 2608 is somewhat strange - I don't think it has an entry for province name, but that is probably possible to alleviate. This means that Paradox gave us 41 free provinces,
223 224 291 1057 1168 1169 1173 1400 1401 1402 1403 1449 1595 1623 1779 1810 1811 1875 1876 1884 1885 1886 1887 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1895 1896
1897 1899 2602 2603 2604 2605 2606 2607 2608

The only limiting factor are tags (20).

 

[unmerged(43424)]

I confirm it works, Alexander Thumbs up !

However, I cannot create the country right at the beginning of the game.

For exemple with Vatican, I had to put it (2607) as a controlled provinces of Italy and after (2nd january) liberate it. After Vatican is correctly liberated, and I don't get any CTD (just run a couple of days)

Did you manage to create a country included in the scenario file (ie without liberating the country on the 2nd of january) ?

 

[Alexander Seil]

I simply defined the country as owning/controlling prov 2607 and having its capital in it, put in the folder and linked it in the .eug file. Remember that it's not enough to have the country definition file be in the scenario folder, it must also be referred to in the scenario .eug file.

Two important things that need to be tested are -
1) Whether it is possible to create units via events on allied territory (my hunch is yes, but it has to be checked)
2) Whether a country without VPs can be annexed or not (my guess would be that you'd still have to control AT LEAST one of their provs, but who knows?)



By the way, one more thing that this can be used for are Italian and German expeditionary forces in Spain. An obvious antidote to the "renaming" exploit that the player can use to keep Kondor Legion troops...

 

[unmerged(43424)]

My fault, forgot an } at the end of the .inc file.

To answer your second question, the answer is no after testing. You need to own all the VP AND the capital to annex, which obviously you cannot because you don't have access to the capital.

 

[unmerged(43424)]

To answer the first one, you can create corps in allied territories. In the test, The Pope first army has just pop up in Berlin :rofl:

Did you succeed in moving units from hidden provinces to the "physical provinces" ?

 

[Zanza]

Hmm, nice modding feature.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Excellent, fabmp, thank you very much The reason the first point is particularly important (I forgot about the "original capital" rule) is because, in order to prevent these GIEs from creating serious problems with annexations, they must not control any VPs in ghost provinces. As for moving units from these undefined provinces, I did not bother testing it yet for two reasons - it is almost certainly possible given my knowledge of how the interface works (provided that you put in the adjacency definitions) and because such movement is only potentially useful for more complex things (such as partisans, which I won't tackle anytime soon). Time to put this to some use. This thread may be kept specifically for discussing the implications of this neat little discovery (although somebody probably stumbled across it before). For more practical applications, check out the other thread, titled "Poland Has Not Perished Yet"

 

[Darth Tracid]

I think this is the one of the longest-hidden easter eggs in gaming history