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A couple of people mentioned General Li Hsiu Cheng, but the best Chinese general during the period in question was undoubtably General Tso Tsung-Tang. In 1860 he was tasked with fighting the Taiping, and in the course of 4 years wiped out the Taiping presence in Fukien and Chiekang provinces. In 1867-8 he was tasked with fighting the Nien rebels in southern China. Then from 1868-1873 he crushed the Muslim rebellion. Then in 1875-1878 he reconquered the Xinjiang region defeating the Muslim leader Yakub Beg and booted the Russians out of the Ili Valley. That was the end of Tso's military career, he held administrative posts until his death in 1885.

In terms of land conquered and population conquered, I think Tso outpoints anyone else in the game's history. In terms of numbers of enemy troops defeated, the only generals that can outpoint him might be some of the German generals who fought on the Eastern Front during WW1.

And yes, this is the same guy for whom the chicken dish is named. :)
 

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So it's really "General Tso", and not "General Chao", or "General Gau"! This is really great to know. I know of a few places that need to correct their menus!
 

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Re: Re: best generals

Originally posted by Marcus Valerius
I don't know if I'd say "excellent". He just used his numerical superiority to his advantage, knowing that he could absorb many more casualties than Lee could, and just pressed on regardless of his own casualties. I don't really see the tactical or strategic genius there to rank him among the very top commanders of the game's era.

Lee consistantly lost a higher percentage of his men.
 

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I really contest that Lee lost systematically more men, the here under revolution of Grants Overland campaign mid '64 reveals this. Make the sum,

on the contrary I believe Grant was known for his bloody record.

I have to agree on the fact that Lee lost the most decisive battles on Union ground with an enormous body count,

source = acw game "from Sumter to Appotomax"

Grant's Overland Campaign [May-June 1864]

Wilderness
Other Names: Combats at Parker's Store, Craig's Meeting House, Todd's Tavern, Brock Road, the Furnaces
Location: Spotsylvania County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 5-7, 1864
Principal Commanders: Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant and Maj. Gen. G.G. Meade [USA]; Gen. Robert E. Lee [CSA]
Forces Engaged: 162,920 total (USA 101,895; CSA 61,025)
Estimated Casualties: 29,800 total (USA 18,400; CSA 11,400)

Description: The opening battle of Grant's sustained offensive against the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia, known as the Overland Campaign, was fought at the Wilderness, May 5-7. On the morning of May 5, 1864, the Union V Corps attacked Ewell's Corps on the Orange Turnpike, while A.P. Hill's corps during the afternoon encountered Getty's Division (VI Corps) and Hancock's II Corps on the Plank Road. Fighting was fierce but inconclusive as both sides attempted to maneuver in the dense woods. Darkness halted the fighting, and both sides rushed forward reinforcements. At dawn May 6, Hancock attacked along the Plank Road, driving Hill's Corps back in confusion. Longstreet's Corps arrived in time to prevent the collapse of the Confederate right flank. At noon, a devastating Confederate flank attack in Hamilton's Thicket sputtered out when Lt. Gen. James Longstreet was wounded by his own men. The IX Corps (Burnside) moved against the Confederate center, but was repulsed. Union generals James S. Wadsworth and Alexander Hays were killed. Confederate generals John M. Jones, Micah Jenkins, and Leroy A. Stafford were killed. The battle was a tactical draw. Grant, however, did not retreat as had the other Union generals before him. On May 7, the Union advanced by the left flank toward the crossroads of Spotsylvania Courthouse.

Outcome: Inconclusive (Grant continued his offensive.)

Spotsylvania Court House
Other Names: Combats at Laurel Hill and Corbin's Bridge (May 8); Ni River (May 9); Laurel Hill, Po River, and Bloody Angle (May 10); Salient or Bloody Angle (May 12-13); Piney Branch Church (May 15); Harrison House (May 18); and Harris Farm (May 19)
Location: Spotsylvania County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 8-21, 1864

Principal Commanders: Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant and Maj. Gen. G.G. Meade [USA]; Gen. Robert E. Lee [CSA]
Forces Engaged: 152,000 total (USA 100,000; CSA 52,000)
Estimated Casualties: 30,000 total (USA 18,000; CSA 12,000)
Description: After the Wilderness, Grant's and Meade's advance on Richmond by the left flank was stalled at Spotsylvania Courthouse on May 8. This two-week battle was a series of combats along the Spotsylvania front. The Union attack against the Bloody Angle at dawn, May 12-13, captured nearly a division of Lee's Army and came near to cutting the Confederate Army in half. Confederate counterattacks plugged the gap, and fighting continued unabated for nearly 20 hours in what may well have been the most ferociously sustained combat of the Civil War. On May 19, a Confederate attempt to turn the Union right flank at Harris Farm was beaten back with severe casualties. Union generals Sedgwick (VI Corps commander) and Rice were killed. Confederate generals Johnson and Stuart were captured, Daniel and Perrin mortally wounded. On May 21, Grant disengaged and continued his advance on Richmond.

Outcome: Inconclusive (Grant continued his offensive.)

Yellow Tavern
Location: Henrico County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 11, 1864
Principal Commanders: Maj. Gen. Philip Sheridan [USA]; Maj. Gen. J.E.B. Stuart [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Divisions
Estimated Casualties: 800 total
Description: As the battle between Grant and Lee raged at Spotsylvania Court House, the Union cavalry corps under Maj. Gen. Philip Sheridan embarked on a cavalry raid against Richmond. After disrupting Lee's road and rail communications, Sheridan's cavalry expedition climaxed with the battle of Yellow Tavern on May 11. The outnumbered Confederate cavalry was defeated, and Maj. Gen. J.E.B. Stuart was mortally wounded. Sheridan continued south to threaten the Richmond defenses before joining Butler's command at Bermuda Hundred. After refitting, Sheridan rejoined the Army of the Potomac for the march to the southeast and the crossing of the Pamunkey on May 25.

Outcome: Union victory

Wilson's Wharf
Location: Charles City
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 24, 1864
Principal Commanders: Brig. Gen. Edward Wild [USA]; Maj. Gen. Fitzhugh Lee [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Brigades
Estimated Casualties: 165 total
Description: On May 24, Fitzhugh Lee's cavalry division (about 3,000 men) attacked the Union supply depot at Wilson's Wharf and was repulsed by two black regiments under Brig. Gen. Edward Wild (about 1,800 men).

Outcome: Union victory

Haw's Shop
Other Names: Enon Church
Location: Hanover County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 28, 1864
Principal Commanders: Brig. Gen. David M. Gregg [USA]; Maj. Gen. Fitzhugh Lee and Maj. Gen. Wade Hampton [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Divisions
Estimated Casualties: 744 total (USA 344; CSA 400)
Description: Gregg's cavalry division, supported by Torbert's division, advanced to cover the Army of the Potomac's crossing of the Pamunkey River and movement toward Totopotomoy Creek. Fitzhugh Lee's and Hampton's cavalry divisions, later reinforced by Butler's South Carolina brigade, met the Union at Enon Church. After seven hours of mostly dismounted cavalry fighting, the Union advance was stopped. Both Confederate and Union infantry began arriving in the vicinity as the cavalry fighting raged.

Outcome: Inconclusive

North Anna
Other Names: Telegraph Road Bridge, Jericho Mill (May 23), Ox Ford, Quarles Mill, Hanover Junction (May 24)
Location: Caroline County and Hanover County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 23-26, 1864
Principal Commanders: Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant and Maj. Gen. G.G. Meade [USA]; Gen. Robert E. Lee [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Armies
Estimated Casualties: 4,000 total

Description: After the fighting at Spotsylvania Court House, Grant continued his Overland Offensive against Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. He was brought up short on the North Anna River by Lee's widely studied hog snout line," which forced Grant to divide his Army into three parts in order to attack. On May 23, 1864, one of A.P. Hill's divisions assaulted the V Corps which had crossed the river at Jericho Mill, resulting in bloody see-saw fighting. On the 24th, Union infantry was repulsed at Ox Ford (the snout") but advanced to near the Doswell House on the Confederate right. Lee hoped to strike an offensive blow, but he was ill, and the opportunity for defeating an isolated part of the Union Army passed. Once the threat of Lee's position was revealed, Grant withdrew both wings of the Army back across the North Anna River. Grant outflanked the position by moving downstream and continued his advance on Richmond.

Outcome: Inconclusive

Totopotomoy Creek
Other Names: Bethesda Church, Crumps Creek, Matadequin Creek,
Location: Hanover County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 28-30, 1864
Principal Commanders: Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant and Maj. Gen. G.G. Meade [USA]; Gen. Robert E. Lee [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Corps
Estimated Casualties: 2,200 total (USA 1,100; CSA 1,100)
Description: Operations along Totopotomoy Creek opened with cavalry combats at the Pamunkey River crossing at Dabney's Ferry (Hanovertown) and at Crump's Creek on May 27. During the cavalry fight at Haw's Shop on May 28, Union and Confederate infantry arrived in the vicinity. The Confederates entrenched behind Totopotomoy Creek. On the 29th, the Union II, IX, and V Corps probed Lee's position along the creek, while the VI Corps felt its way toward Hanover Court House. Early on the 30th, the VI Corps turned south to come in on the far right flank of the Union line (II Corps) but bogged down in swampy Crump's Creek without getting into position. The II Corps forced a crossing of Totopotomoy Creek in two places, capturing the first line of Confederate trenches, but the advance was stopped at the main line. The IX Corps maneuvered into position on the left of the II Corps, driving back Confederate pickets on the Shady Grove Road. In the meantime, the V Corps, moving near Bethesda Church on the far left flank of the Union Army, was attacked by Early's corps. The Union soldiers were driven back to Shady Grove Road after heavy fighting. Confederate Brig. Gen. George Doles was killed by a sharpshooter near Bethesda Church on June 2.

Outcome: Inconclusive

Old Church
Other Names: The Crossing
Location: Hanover County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 30, 1864
Principal Commanders: Brig. Gen. Alfred Torbert [USA]; Maj. Gen. Wade Hampton [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Brigades
Estimated Casualties: 900 total
Description: With the armies stalemated along the Totopotomoy Creek line, the Union cavalry began probing east and south. On May 30, Torbert's Division attacked and defeated Hampton's Division near Old Church. Hampton's troopers were driven steadily back on the road to Old Cold Harbor, opening the door for Sheridan's capture of the important crossroads the next day.

Outcome: Union victory

Cold Harbor
Other Names: Second Cold Harbor
Location: Hanover County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): May 31-June 12, 1864
Principal Commanders: Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant and Maj. Gen. G.G. Meade [USA]; Gen. Robert E. Lee [CSA]
Forces Engaged: 170,000 total (USA 108,000; CSA 62,000)
Estimated Casualties: 14,500 total (USA 12,000; CSA 2,500)
Description: On May 31, Sheridan's cavalry seized the vital crossroads of Old Cold Harbor. Relying heavily on their new repeating carbines and shallow entrenchments, Sheridan's troopers threw back several attacks by Confederate cavalry. Both sides dug in during the night. Confederate reinforcements arrived from Richmond and from the Totopotomoy Creek lines. On June 1, the Union VI and XVIII Corps reached Cold Harbor and assaulted the Confederate works with some success. By June 2, both armies were on the field, forming on a five-mile front that extended from Bethesda Church to the Chickahominy River. At dawn June 3, the II, VI, and XVIII Corps assaulted along the Bethesda Church-Cold Harbor line and were slaughtered at all points. Grant commented in his memoirs that this was the only attack he wished he had never ordered. The armies confronted each other on these lines until night of June 12, when Grant again advanced by his left flank, marching to James River at Windmill Point. On June 14, the II Corps was ferried across the river at Wilcox's Landing by transports. On June 15, the rest of the Army began crossing on a 2,200-foot-long pontoon bridge. Abandoning the well-defended approaches to Richmond, Grant sought to shift his Army quickly south of the river to threaten Petersburg.

Outcome: Confederate victory

Trevilian Station
Other Names: Trevilians
Location: Louisa County
Campaign: Grant's Overland Campaign (May-June 1864)
Date(s): June 11-12, 1864
Principal Commanders: Maj. Gen. Philip Sheridan [USA]; Maj. Gen. Wade Hampton [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Divisions
Estimated Casualties: 1,600 total
Description: To draw off the Confederate cavalry and open the door for a general movement to the James River, Maj. Gen. Philip Sheridan mounted a large-scale cavalry raid into Louisa County, threatening to cut the Virginia Central Railroad. On June 11, Sheridan with the Gregg's and Torbert's divisions attacked Hampton's and Fitzhugh Lee's cavalry divisions at Trevilian Station. Sheridan drove a wedge between the Confederate divisions, throwing them into confusion. On the 12th, fortunes were reversed. Hampton and Lee dismounted their troopers and drew a defensive line across the railroad and the road to Gordonsville. From this advantageous position, they beat back several determined dismounted assaults. Sheridan withdrew after destroying about six miles of the Virginia Central Railroad. Confederate victory at Trevilian prevented Sheridan from reaching Charlottesville and cooperating with Hunter's Army in the Valley. This was one of the bloodiest cavalry battles of the war.

Outcome: Confederate victory
 

Spruce

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Re: Re: Re: best generals

Originally posted by Frodon
One word: VICKSBURG

A second word = siege!

ok Grants campaign to cut off the city was brilliant and resulted in the capture of an entire rebel army,

but the main contribution to the rebel defeat was the poor reaction of the confederates to defend the keypoints at Jackson and eventually giving away victory to Grant before the battle begon,

I think Grants manouvre was genius but he could have been easely defeated if Johnston wouldn't have panicked at Jackson,
 

Tim O

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Originally posted by Spruce
I really contest that Lee lost systematically more men, the here under revolution of Grants Overland campaign mid '64 reveals this. Make the sum,
on the contrary I believe Grant was known for his bloody record.

I said Lee lost a higher percentage of his men in the the '64 campaign. I posted somewhere on this site before, but I can't look it up because the search function is disabled. It's not a big difference maybe 25% as compared to 23%. Grant lost more men in total because he was on the offensive in a war, and most definitly in the '64 campaign that favored the defensive to a signifigant degree.
 

unmerged(1973)

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Re: Re: Re: Re: best generals

Originally posted by Spruce

but the main contribution to the rebel defeat was the poor reaction of the confederates to defend the keypoints at Jackson and eventually giving away victory to Grant before the battle begon,

I think Grants manouvre was genius but he could have been easely defeated if Johnston wouldn't have panicked at Jackson,

Well, we could off course debunk most of Lee's victories in the same way.

If the Union had a general with more agressiveness and initiative than McClellan, the Peninsular Campaign would have ended with the capture of Richmond.

And an agressive union general would certainly have destroyed the rebel army when Lee ended up in a hopeless position at Antietam.

The battle of Fredericksburg wouldn't even be fought if the Union commander had more brains than Burnside.

And the Union would certainly have won at Chancellorville if Hooker hadn't panicked after his brilliant start of the campaign.

And Lee's Gettysburg campaign was just as pointless as the invasion of Maryland. And once again he was lucky to get back south with his army somewhat intact.
 

Spruce

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: best generals

Originally posted by Frodon
Well, we could off course debunk most of Lee's victories in the same way.

i totally disagree. What I wanted to say was the following =

Lee tried to exploit superior conditions for his army, also by offensive manoeuvres. We all know he lost battles so there's no point in defending his invincibility.

By superior conditions I would say terrain type, defensive positions, the massing of an overweigth in troops (to exploit the overweight), cutting off supply lines.

I've played many civil war games (like civil war generals 2) that prooved the following conclusion about Vicksburg =

- Grants road map to achieve victory was genial,
- the assault on Jackson was a major contribution to isolate Vicksburg,
- the confederates knew that both Vicksburg and Jackson were vital to secure the confederacy. Davis gave specific orders,
- Davis ordered Johnson to take command of the army and secure defenses of Vicksburg,
- Johnson found out that Jackson had few troops to defend it effective,
- Johnson panicked and ordered the Jackson brigades to move away, covered by a skeleton brigade,
- less then 24 hours before Johson was gone, a confederate army corps arrived in Jackson to fight for nothing. The Union had invaded the town and destroyed all railroad connections to Vicksburg,
- Vicksburg was isolated and most Union assaults on Vicksburg resulted in a Union slaughterhouse,
- Vicksburg fell because the city was simply starved to death,

Grants tactic to cut of Vicksburg was genial, but the main contributor to the confederate defeat was the evacuation of Jackson.

And im my opinion there's still a difference between the result of a Campaign and the Generals skill.

In my eyes Vicksburg was the succesfull "market garden" of the civil war. Monty got his credit in the African desert. Still Monty was judged very hard on the "market garden" defeat and Grant was consired to be the genius of Vicksburg,

something to think about,

and Lee also had his limits, he believed himself rather than his army to be invincible,
 

StephenT

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For best guerrilla leader, I think an honourable mention at least has to go to Lakshmi Bai, the Rani of Jhansi. For one thing, her forces ran rings around the British until she was finally trapped and killed; and for another, how many other women generals are we going to include on our list? :)
 

unmerged(1973)

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Mar 18, 2001
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: best generals

Originally posted by Spruce


- Johnson found out that Jackson had few troops to defend it effective,
- Johnson panicked and ordered the Jackson brigades to move away, covered by a skeleton brigade,
- less then 24 hours before Johson was gone, a confederate army corps arrived in Jackson to fight for nothing. The Union had invaded the town and destroyed all railroad connections to Vicksburg,


Grants tactic to cut of Vicksburg was genial, but the main contributor to the confederate defeat was the evacuation of Jackson.


Well, I have never played Civil War Generals 2 (always did prefer Age of Rifles), but I have read a couple of thousand of pages about the Vicksburg campaign. Can't see how Joseph Johnston (not exactly the most initiative-rich general) should have been able to hold Jackson against the Union XV and XVII Corps.

As far as I remember there wasn't any rebel corps that reached Jackson. I guess you are refering to Pemberton's army that marched to Champions Hill, some halfway between Jackson and Vicksburg. They did of course not stand a chance against McClernand and McPherson and was lucky to get back to Vicksburg. I don't think Johnston's Jackson-force would not have made any difference. since Shermans corps would also have been able to intervene if Johnston had moved to join forces with Pemberton.

So I wouldn't say that it was the evacuation of Jackson that caused the Confederate defeat. As thing developed, Johnston had not any chance to hold that city. The main problem was that Bragg's army sat quiet at Tullahomma and enjoyed their summer vacation. But off course, Rosecrans army could also have intervened if Bragg had moved west.

So the main reason that the Union won the Vicksburg campaign, was superior generalship. The Union had far better leaders in the western theatre from day 1, and it certainly showed in the Vicksburg campaign.
 
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unmerged(9895)

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Jun 21, 2002
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a few things to add in :

the confederates never much stood a chance after the first 6 months of the war. they were overmatched in every important aspect of warfare, except when it came to generals.

the fact that the confederacy actually held out for so long is a great feat, with most of the credit going to their commanders. by the time of Lee's surrender the union no only had much much larger numbers with the ability to fully supply ever increasing troop amounts, they also had the most advanced warfare weaponry in the world at the time. the bullets, rifles, artillery, and navy of the union were vastly supeiror to that of the confederates. Its incredible they even held their own, let alone winning many of the battles. even when losing, the causalties inflicted apon the union is still impressive.

for the union, and Grant, its pretty much the exact opposite. he was fighting a worn down, under supplied enemy. not only where their numbers shrinking, but even the most determined confederate generals show little chance of vitory late in the war. economic production had come to a complete halt, along with foreign trade. what i'm getting at is the south was ready to fall, so insert any union general you like, give him all the men he could possibly ask for, hand him a viable plan for victory, and there you have it, the end of the war and the next great american war hero. Grant recieved the possition because of his prior victories, and his quick rise to glory. But, his final victory is not because of his greatness, its because he was up against an enemy that needed only one last good punch and the fight would be over. there were really a great number of generals that could of completed this task, he was just the lucky one to have success at the right time. Put Grant in charge of the union army at the beginning of the war and he would of been beaten back to washington like all the rest.
 

unmerged(1973)

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Mar 18, 2001
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Originally posted by KrisKannon
Put Grant in charge of the union army at the beginning of the war and he would of been beaten back to washington like all the rest.

Well, that is off course just pure speculation. Personally I'm more willing to speculate that Grant would have been in Richmond in early 1862 if he had been in command. He showed from his first fights in Belmont and all the way to Appomattox that he wasn't afraid to fight. And there is nothing in Grant's personality that makes me think that he would have retreated to Washington as soon as had lost a battle. He would probably just give it another try. And an offensive minded Union General on the Peninsula could have made a world of difference.

However, most generals could off course have done mistakes in those early days when both troops and generals were green and without experience, and Grant was probably lucky to gradually gain some experience before taking over larger commands...

One of my favourite civil war "what if's" is:

What if General Robert E Lee accepts Winfield Scott's offer and takes over the field command of the Union Army of the Northeastern Virginia in 1861?

The Union public will still scream "on to Richmond" and it's Marse Lee and not McDowell that will have to lead his green and unprepared Army south towards Bull Run. The result of the battle will probably be the same. Lee had the same weakness for planning over-complicated battleplans (just look at his "campaign" in West Virginia and the 7 days battles), so there is a good chance that the Union Army will still rout and run towards Washington. And Lee's virginian background will probably be used against him when the polticians in Washington starts looking for a scapegoat. So I guess he will not be given a corps command like McDowell but rather a one way ticket west of the Mississippi or perhaps even confinement in a dungeon like the poor general Stone.

So with Lee out of the way, who'll take command of the Army of Northern Virginia when Joe Johnston goes down? And how will it effect the rest of the war?

Well, probably more suitable in the history forum... :D
 

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Originally posted by Frodon
Well, that is off course just pure speculation. Personally I'm more willing to speculate that Grant would have been in Richmond in early 1862 if he had been in command.

No way an 1861 Union army under anybody would have taken Richmond in 1862. Between taking command in late 1863 and the surrender in April 1865, it took Grant 20 months to take Richmond in a situation where he outnumbered Lee 2:1 and had limitless reserves where Lee had none. The Union forces of 1863-5 had better weaponry that the South, better cavalry, vast quantities of supplies, experienced troops, and complete naval supremacy. With the deck stacked so highly in his favor, it took him almost 2 years to beat Lee.

Flip back to 1861, before all the good Union generals had been discovered and men like Burnside, Pope, Sumner, and Mansfield were commanding Union Corps. Before the great Confederate leaders like Jackson, Hood, AP Hill, Stuart, and Ewell had been incapacitated. Before the numerical advantage had gotten so large in the Union's favor. Before the South was ravaged by war and could not feed itself or its army. Before the immense weaponry advantage was around. All those things that were in Grant's favor before are now against him or even at best. You still think he could have walked into Richmond in 1862? Not likely. Even against Johnston.
 

unmerged(1973)

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Mar 18, 2001
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Originally posted by Stonewall

Flip back to 1861, before all the good Union generals had been discovered and men like Burnside, Pope, Sumner, and Mansfield were commanding Union Corps. Before the great Confederate leaders like Jackson, Hood, AP Hill, Stuart, and Ewell had been incapacitated.

Jackson made more mistakes during the peninsular campaign, than he did all together during the rest of the war. The great confederate leaders were quite green in early 1862, and people like Magruder, Huger, and Gustavus Smith weren't exactly better than their Union counterparts.

I can reccomend Stephen Sears' excellent book To the Gates of Richmond for those of you who don't belive that a more aggressive commander than McClellan could have taken Richmond in 1862...
 
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Originally posted by Frodon
Jackson made more mistakes during the peninsular campaign, than he did all together during the rest of the war. The great confederate leaders were quite green in early 1862, and people like Magruder, Huger, and Gustavus Smith weren't exactly better than their Union counterparts.

I can reccomend Stephen Sears' excellent book To the Gates of Richmond for those of you who don't belive that a more aggressive commander than McClellan could have taken Richmond in 1862...

I've read that work and disgaree with most of what the author argues. Yes, the South had its share of poor commanders, and this continued right up til the end of the war. And yes, the Southern commanders were fairly green in 1862 (most had seen service in Mexico). However, their inherent qualities as generals were still rpesent. Jackson, the Hills, Ewell, Longstreet all fought very very well during the Peninsular cmapaign.

Its very hard to make comparisons on what-if's. What if it was Grant in command. Would he have applied the same strategy that McClellan. If not, then we can assume that the mistakes the South made would not have been repeated because circumstances would have been different. Its a circular game that doesn't make sense if you try and iron out all the details.

All I can say is to take the overall situation at the beginning of the Peninsular Campaign and compare it to the situation in late 1863 early 1864. The South was much much more competitive in 1862 than in 1864 and while Grant would certainly have made a difference in terms of pressing advantages, it is also likely that the casualties on both sides would have been much higher if Grant were leading the Northern armies. Maybe he wouldn't have retreated on his own, but with 30 to 40,000 casualties pouring in in early 1862, you can bet Washington would have been hot on his heels to pull back and regroup. that is not to mention the attitudes of the Corps and division commanders serving under him. I just don't buy that grant could have won in 1862 the same way I don't buy the South could have won if Jackson hadn't been killed at Chancellorsville.

These subjects do make for nice debating topics though. :D
 

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I found it amusing that somebody states that Grant would capture Richmond fearly early in the war.

From all my documentations, I've read that the confederacy wasn't that ill supplied in the first years like everybody tries to believe.

The only weak spot was the total lack of artillery and the standardisation of artillery.

I believe should Grant have been in command of the Union armies in 1861-1862 he would have massacred most of his men - giving the copperheads the exact proof to end Lincolns dream and war - so giving independence to the South.

I merely try to combine the political and military arguments. When Lincoln and his war cabinet embarked on the "on to Richmond" paradigm, the figure of Grant would not have fitted in the picture. Grant with his "green" commanders and troops wouldn't have stood a chance towards "ace of spades" Lee.

Also every general has to earn his credit based on his character, education and background. There's not one general that was born as a good general. I've read the resolutoin on Grants overland campaign in 1864 and still Lee mastered the situation and inflicted massive casualties upon the Federals.

Grant was an excellent General but again the Vicksburg operations were the "market garden" of the civil war. By loosing Vicksburg the confederates lost a cornerstone of their independence and when one stone drops the whole wall comes down,

From mid 1864 the battle effectiveness of the confederate troops was dropping more and more...
 

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Jackson
Location: Hinds County
Campaign: Grant's Operations against Vicksburg (1862-63)
Date(s): May 14, 1863
Principal Commanders: Maj. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant [USA]; Gen. Joseph E. Johnston and Brig. Gen. John Gregg [CSA]
Forces Engaged: Army of the Tennessee [USA]; Jackson Garrison [CSA]
Estimated Casualties: 1,136 total (US 286; CS 850)
Description: On May 9, 1863, Gen. Joseph E. Johnston received a dispatch from the Confederate Secretary of War directing him to Proceed at once to Mississippi and take chief command of the forces in the field." As he arrived in Jackson, on the 13th, from Middle Tennessee, he learned that two Army corps from the Union Army of the Tennessee--the XV, under Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, and the XVII, under Maj. Gen. James Birdseye McPherson--were advancing on Jackson, intending to cut the city and the railroads off from Vicksburg. Johnston consulted with the local commander, Brig. Gen. John Gregg, and learned that only about 6,000 troops were available to defend the town. Johnston ordered the evacuation of Jackson, but Gregg was to defend Jackson until the evacuation was completed. By 10:00 a.m., both Union Army corps were near Jackson and had engaged the enemy. Rain, Confederate resistance, and poor defenses prevented heavy fighting until around 11:00 a.m., when Union forces attacked in numbers and slowly but surely pushed the enemy back. In mid-afternoon, Johnston informed Gregg that the evacuation was complete and that he should disengage and follow. Soon after, the Yankees entered Jackson and had a celebration, hosted by Maj. Gen. U.S. Grant who had been traveling with Sherman's corps, in the Bowman House. They then burned part of the town and cut the railroad connections with Vicksburg. Johnston's evacuation of Jackson was a tragedy because he could, by late on the 14th, have had 11,000 troops at his disposal and by the morning of the 15th, another 4,000. The fall of the former Mississippi state capital was a blow to Confederate morale.

Outcome: Union victory

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do believe this battle was decisive for the Vicksburg capture... Grant wasn't able to capture Vicksburg via military manoeuvres, I've played the first Vicksburg battles in Civil war generals 2 and they are a walkover for the confederates.

But when the supplies and food was ousted, the confederates had to cash in big time! Surrendering nearly an entire army! Also the failure of Holmes relieve assaults were credited on a mssing link = Jackson.

Had Vicksburg been partly surrounded or more accesable to the confederates. Grant would have fougth there for a very long period of time... I can guarantuee that the Vicksburg fortifications were a tough nut to crack...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Helena
Location: Phillips County
Campaign: Grant's Operations Against Vicksburg (1863)
Date(s): July 4, 1863
Principal Commanders: Maj. Gen. Benjamin Prentiss [USA]; Lt. Gen. Theophilus H. Holmes [CSA]
Forces Engaged: District of Eastern Arkansas [USA]; District of Arkansas [CSA]
Estimated Casualties: 1,842 total (US 206; CS 1,636)
Description: Lt. Gen. Theophilus Holmes's troops attacked Helena in an attempt to relieve pressure on Vicksburg. Although the Confederates had more troops and did initially capture some of the fortifications, the Union forces repelled them. Thus, Helena continued as an important Union enclave in the Trans-Mississippi theater and served as a base for the expedition that captured Little Rock.

Outcome: Union victory
 

unmerged(9895)

Imfamous Warmonger
Jun 21, 2002
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i find it amazing, but i totally agree with everything in spruce's last post (i'll spare you quoting it because of its large size)

but yes, the confederates would of fell to any general who knew how to aim a rifle by the time grant steped in and , no, grant would not of faired any better early in the war than any of his predicesors.

Grant did not defeat the confederacy, it was defeated by the unions large population and modernized economy.
 

unmerged(1973)

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Mar 18, 2001
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Originally posted by Spruce
I found it amusing that somebody states that Grant would capture Richmond fearly early in the war.

From all my documentations, I've read that the confederacy wasn't that ill supplied in the first years like everybody tries to believe.

The supply situation of the rebels were quite good in the early war. But they could off course still loose battles (as they did in the west). The fact is that a timid and ultra-careful officer like McClellan almost managed to reach the suburbs of Richmond. And the mistakes that the rebels did during the peninsula campaign was only marginally less than the unions mistakes.

A more aggressive union commander could certainly have made a difference. (unless you take it for granted that Robert E Lee was a wargod that could whip anything that came against him, and that a southern cavalier could whip 10 yankee mudsills :D )
 
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