On the contrary, a big buffer Germany containing Austria and the Tyrol would be a useful ally in future conflicts.
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Germany under the Weimar Republic
Part 55
Europe, December-February 1944
The total collapse of the Third Reich had left the future of Germany undecided. Of all the questions in the post-war: the Italian Question, the Greek Question, the Turkish Question, the fate of the Germans was the most delicate, the most serious and the most watched.
Vladimir called for a meeting of the moribund League of Nations to take place at Vienna to determine the borders of the post-war world. The Russians (who refused to recognise the so-called 'United Nations' established by the Allies) argued that only an international agreement between the powers could secure a peaceful future. Negotiations broke down when the Americans refused to attend in the capacity of a mere spectator, as they would be unable to directly influence events under a League of Nations aegis. Eventually the idea was dropped and the conference took place without the overview of an international body. In any case the primary meeting was, of course, between the Germans and the Russians.
The German delegation consisted of anti-Nazi aristocrats (Rupprecht, Duke of Bavaria and Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia), army officers (Ludwig Beck and Werner von Fritsch) and conservative Weimar-era politicians (Oskar Meissner and Franz von Papen). Based on the stated Russian war aims the Germans were aiming for a moderate-conservative monarchist government that would keep Germany together; the great fear was that Moscow might consider a united Germany too strong to be left intact. The others countries like Poland were relatively weak but Germany could hardly fail to be a great power.
Indeed this was a view prominent in Russia itself. When Germany had been strong and Russia weak the Germans had not been merciful; why should Russia be so now? Brest-Litovsk had been a harsher treaty by far than Versailles had been, and only the failure of the Germans in the West had prevented it becoming reality. As it was that treaty had broken the Russian back for two decades.
The most extreme view - the total break up of the German Reich was held by relatively few. Apart from the extreme difficulty in keeping apart 75 million Germans who no matter how exhausted and dispirited might resist it would sow the seeds of a thousand future Hitlers seeking to reunite the Fatherland. Conversely the secession of Austria was universally agreed upon; the country had not even spent a decade as part of Germany and there was some reason to assume the experiences of war had dampened the desire for pan-Germanism in Vienna. In any case Austria was a necessary barrier against the uncertain situation in Italy. A less extreme plan - seperating Prussia from the other German states was not entirely ruled out however.
A considerable faction in the Russian Government, led by Prime Minister Kolchak, advocated a strong Kingdom of Poland under Vladimir in the Finnish model. Not to the scale of the Polish Great Power that had existed after the First World War, but still a powerful buffer state. The Russian border would be advanced to the old Curzon Line, incorporating most of the Ukrainian and Byelorussian areas of old Poland; the Poles themselves would receive substantial territory from Germany, including Dazing, with a new border drawn along the Oder and Lusatian Neisse rivers. This would weaken (and punish) Germany and at the same time tie Poland to Russia for fear of conflict with an embittered Germany. Königsberg and its surrounding territory would pass directly into Russian hands providing a longed for port for the Imperial Navy.
The Emperor was not blind to these arguments, but he had personal reasons to be merciful to Germany. His own sister Kira was married to Prince Louis Ferdinand, second in line to the Prussian and German thrones and he could hardly countenance the destruction of historic Prussia. While there might have been pragmatic reasons for the annexation of East Prussia between Poland and Russia it would be at the cost of a Hohenzollern restoration; how could a Kaiser or King survive the loss of Königsberg?
Vladimir advocated a return to the pre-1933 borders (for Germany anyway). He pointed out that while this would leave Germany strong it would not leave them bitter. Germany would always be strong but she need not be an enemy and the Russians had fought the war against Hitlerism (not the German people). Furthermore Russia and Europe actually needed a strong Germany; too harsh a peace might cause the dreadful spectre of Marxism to rise from its grave in Germany and who knew where that would lead?
The question of whether Germany should be militarily limited as she had been after Versailles was a fiercely argued one, with the Russians angling for Italy and Greece to be likewise demilitarised. Neither the Allies nor the Russians were able to to agree on these matters - France was quite nervous enough with Russian divisions on her border, while the Russians were fearful about Americans in Greece and the French in north Italy. Italy indeed was quite a complex business in its own right and would have to wait another day to settle.
As this anxious debate was going on two states were established, or rather re-established, in Europe on 20 December. Czechoslovakia was much as it had been before the war (less Carpathian Ruthenia, which passed to the Russian Empire), but Austria was restored as an Archduchy. Otto, Crown Prince of Austria and heir to the proudest name in Europe had spent his entire adult life in exile only to find himself restored in the unlikeliest of circumstances by force of Russian arms. Two Emperors sat at his coronation - Vladimir of Russia and Eui of Korea.
The Russian Emperor then flew to Finland to attend another coronation - his own. In recognition of the Finnish contribution to the war effort the old Grand Duchy was abolished and replaced by a fully independent Kingdom of Finland. The King-Emperor spent (Lutheran) Christmas Day in Helsinki before returning to Russia to celebrate (Russian Orthodox) Christmas in Russia.
The bitter disagreement over Germany - and Poland, Italy and Greece would have to wait for the new year.
Charle_88: So you think peace is out of the question then? 
Mishgan: Germany is certainly problematic! A monarchical Germany negates much border movement in the east, but otherwise Germany might be left too strong.
RGB: Heh, nice to know the man on the street is so reasonable!
GeneralHannibal: I have fixed Italy (and Greece). I will talk about them in the next update.
VILenin: Its possible, but (again) raises the Prussian problem. To keep Prussia viable they really must keep their eastern borders intact.
Dr. Gonzo: Well... That would please the hardliners anyway!
KanaX: Germany is a little large to be a Grand Duchy no?
Murmurandus: Thank you.
stnylan: Probably!
Pablo Sanchez: Russia is worried about the Allies in Italy and Greece so there may be some attempt at moderation by both sides.
Deus Eversor: Well said.
Specialist290: Interesting thoughts. Certainly I am inclined to some form of independent Poland, though its nature it a little undetermined right now.
Crush3r: Heh, think big!
rcduggan: Yeah.
Mishgan: Germany is certainly problematic! A monarchical Germany negates much border movement in the east, but otherwise Germany might be left too strong.
RGB: Heh, nice to know the man on the street is so reasonable!
GeneralHannibal: I have fixed Italy (and Greece). I will talk about them in the next update.
VILenin: Its possible, but (again) raises the Prussian problem. To keep Prussia viable they really must keep their eastern borders intact.
Dr. Gonzo: Well...
That would please the hardliners anyway!KanaX: Germany is a little large to be a Grand Duchy no?
Murmurandus: Thank you.
stnylan: Probably!
Pablo Sanchez: Russia is worried about the Allies in Italy and Greece so there may be some attempt at moderation by both sides.
Deus Eversor: Well said.
Specialist290: Interesting thoughts. Certainly I am inclined to some form of independent Poland, though its nature it a little undetermined right now.
Crush3r: Heh, think big!
rcduggan: Yeah.
So, there are some resisting the temptation to crush Germany. And while I take the point, charity and kindness can leave a taste far more bitter than cruelty.
A lenient peace has its merits, hopefully creating less acrimony and revanchism. Brest-Litovsk and Versailles demonstrated what a fateful mistake being overharsh can be. On the other hand, this is the second major European war that Germany has started in under forty years. There definitely need to be consequences. Leaving Germany largelyl intact is fine, but the key word is largely. Something needs to be done to compromise their future ability to wage war.
What's all that nonsense about making Prussia viable? A viable Prussia should definitely belong only in horror movies.
A nicely trimmed Germany (minus the Czechs, Slovaks, and whatever territory the Poles can potentially invent/rightfully lay a claim to) would do fine, I think. Let them keep Austria, like anyone really cares.
That would almost qualify as MAKING THEM PAY as well.
A nicely trimmed Germany (minus the Czechs, Slovaks, and whatever territory the Poles can potentially invent/rightfully lay a claim to) would do fine, I think. Let them keep Austria, like anyone really cares.
That would almost qualify as MAKING THEM PAY as well.
Argh! A cliff hanger >.< A thousand years of agony upon you! Which is in fact 996 years, but it doesn't really matter...
Poland can put claims only to Oppeln and Elbing really. What interests me is the eastern border of Poland?
Will Lvov return to Poland as one of the most influencial polish cities?
@RGB
We meet again, Kislev lover
Will Lvov return to Poland as one of the most influencial polish cities?
@RGB
We meet again, Kislev lover
Gyg said:@RGB
We meet again, Kislev lover
Surely you must be stalking me...small internets!
As you can see I still have a weakness for "Kislev" etc. even in these games.
By the way, unless it is much of a bother, could you please provide a map of Russia as in its current borders, plus the Personal Union states?
Hmm... The Allies want a divided Germany. The Germans want a united Germany. The Russian government is split on the matter (all the way up to the Czar and the Prime Minister), and the Russian soldiers probably just want to see their sweethearts, wives, and children again. Meanwhile, we still have Greece and Italy to worry about... What's the exact status of Greece again? Sorry, it's been a while since it was mentioned, I think (or I'm losing my memory... :wacko: )
I'm sure the Allies would love a united Germany- in their camp.
This represents a real quandary for His Imperial Highness; if Roosevelt detested Britain's colonial empire, he can't be pleased to see Russian monarchism resurgent across Europe.
I'm afraid that the increasing technological and economic gap leaves Russia with few realistic options. The Allies will rebuff all attempts at reconciliation and cooperation. An Iron Curtain will descend across Europe, and Russia will be left outside.
You will need all the help you can get. Woo those few states still outside the grasp of the Allies. Reconcile with Japan. And resurrect a strong German Empire; to survive in this world, Russia must have true partners instead of resentful clients.
This represents a real quandary for His Imperial Highness; if Roosevelt detested Britain's colonial empire, he can't be pleased to see Russian monarchism resurgent across Europe.
I'm afraid that the increasing technological and economic gap leaves Russia with few realistic options. The Allies will rebuff all attempts at reconciliation and cooperation. An Iron Curtain will descend across Europe, and Russia will be left outside.
You will need all the help you can get. Woo those few states still outside the grasp of the Allies. Reconcile with Japan. And resurrect a strong German Empire; to survive in this world, Russia must have true partners instead of resentful clients.
Well, I think everybody is far too much into the "Cold War" logic here, certainly biased by the situation resembling in some aspects that of the real life USSR.
But do remember that Imperial Russia is not the USSR. From what I could gather from this AAR, it is that there are democratic elections for one, there are genuine policies of protecting minorities. It is also not a territories-hungry monster that gobbles up all it can find in its wake. It did gobble up some countries, but: Finland is still sovereign, it liberated Korea into a sovereign state, it did not bash the Kazakhs into submission. Russification is non-existent. Czechoslovakia is an independent state now (I do wonder: republic or monarchy? ) and so is Austria.
On the other hands, the Allies have yet to return sovereignty to Italy and Greece...
So, who is the pixel hungry imperialist there? I believe that applying the real life situation where Stalin said: "Yes, democratic elections... of communists!" to the present one is a mistake.
As such, it would be natural for France and the UK to be troubled by the ever ascending power of the Russian Empire. Zee Republique might go into "Sacre bleu, zey are goingue to restore zee Rois de France!" paranoia, while the Brist are famed for their "not single one power dominant on the continent politics". And the United States, in their tradition of republicanism, might also not be very hot about a super Russian monarchy. But I do not think that Paris, London and Washington would be as adamant against the Empire as they were against the Soviet Union.
Moreover, there is a wedge in between Washington and Paris/London in the sense that the Tsar did accept the American mediation, a result of which was the instauration of a sovereign Korean state and the liberation of China from Japanese occupation.
But well, these are my two rappen/centimes into the matter.
But do remember that Imperial Russia is not the USSR. From what I could gather from this AAR, it is that there are democratic elections for one, there are genuine policies of protecting minorities. It is also not a territories-hungry monster that gobbles up all it can find in its wake. It did gobble up some countries, but: Finland is still sovereign, it liberated Korea into a sovereign state, it did not bash the Kazakhs into submission. Russification is non-existent. Czechoslovakia is an independent state now (I do wonder: republic or monarchy?
) and so is Austria. On the other hands, the Allies have yet to return sovereignty to Italy and Greece...
So, who is the pixel hungry imperialist there? I believe that applying the real life situation where Stalin said: "Yes, democratic elections... of communists!" to the present one is a mistake.
As such, it would be natural for France and the UK to be troubled by the ever ascending power of the Russian Empire. Zee Republique might go into "Sacre bleu, zey are goingue to restore zee Rois de France!" paranoia, while the Brist are famed for their "not single one power dominant on the continent politics". And the United States, in their tradition of republicanism, might also not be very hot about a super Russian monarchy. But I do not think that Paris, London and Washington would be as adamant against the Empire as they were against the Soviet Union.
Moreover, there is a wedge in between Washington and Paris/London in the sense that the Tsar did accept the American mediation, a result of which was the instauration of a sovereign Korean state and the liberation of China from Japanese occupation.
But well, these are my two rappen/centimes into the matter.
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Now that I think about it, Mishgan makes some interesting points.
France and Britain would certainly be alarmed by the threat that the Russians' disturbance of the balance of power in Europe would present and would obviously be trying to find a way to counterbalance that power. America, on the other hand, could be something of a wild card: It could opt to support the Allies, it could instead support the Russians (unlikely as that may be), or, especially since its contribution to this version of World War II wasn't very major, it could instead remain neutral and try to return to its prewar isolationist policies (probably most likely, especially whn Roosevelt is gone).
France and Britain would certainly be alarmed by the threat that the Russians' disturbance of the balance of power in Europe would present and would obviously be trying to find a way to counterbalance that power. America, on the other hand, could be something of a wild card: It could opt to support the Allies, it could instead support the Russians (unlikely as that may be), or, especially since its contribution to this version of World War II wasn't very major, it could instead remain neutral and try to return to its prewar isolationist policies (probably most likely, especially whn Roosevelt is gone).
Mishgan said:Czechoslovakia is an independent state now (I do wonder: republic or monarchy?
It has to be a republic, as there is no legitimacy for a Czech-Slovak monarchy. There is only the Kingdom of Bohemia and the Slovakian part of the Kingdom of Hungary, both titles being held by the Habsburgs. Theoretically a Czechoslovakian monarchy could be created, but it would be purely a creation of convenience and would fly in the face of the traditionalism that would motivate such in the first place.
Mishgan said:But do remember that Imperial Russia is not the USSR. From what I could gather from this AAR, it is that there are democratic elections for one, there are genuine policies of protecting minorities. It is also not a territories-hungry monster that gobbles up all it can find in its wake. It did gobble up some countries, but: Finland is still sovereign, it liberated Korea into a sovereign state, it did not bash the Kazakhs into submission. Russification is non-existent. Czechoslovakia is an independent state now (I do wonder: republic or monarchy?
Clearly a mis-estimation what the USSR was and wasn't, it seems, and how Vladimir's Empire compares to it. In many ways the two states are very similar.
Considering much of the Anglo-French foreign policy was based around containing Russia right until Germany became the bigger threat, I'd say that the better outcome is hardly to be expected. Russophobia is a time-honoured tradition in the West, no matter who holds the reins of power in Moscow/Petrograd, and the Western governments wouldn't have to try hard at all to get their people into a Cold War frenzy.
RGB said:
How does a USSR which exiles entire peoples and starves half its population to death through collectivisation and trusts its soldiers to the point of sending them off to labour camps after the war compare to Vladimir's Russia?
I don't know, but this fantasy Russia here looks light years better than what the USSR was. *shrug* But well, maybe that's just me.
It's not that it's as bad as the USSR, it's that the Allies are probably not willing to accept such a monolithic power in Europe. The case would be the same even if it was a democracy. Simple power-politics.