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Lys91

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Indeed, but what is also true is that this wasn´t a war where all of Europe (+- Russia) fought against France. It was more like everybody against Habsburgs (even catholic France, because of the political reasons). Other than that in the timeframe.
Hundred years war. My God did France messed that one up. It won, barely, in the end. Saved by woman who was seeing ghosts. Personally I consider this a victory, but I hope we can agree on that it was tough one.
Wars in Italy - temporarily France won, but later was pushed back and back. Here, I would say France just had too many enemies. Something remained in it´s hands, but not as much as it hoped.
Thirty years war - we discussed that. France came there quite late and I have to admit it subsidized Sweden (which didn´t helped us, Swedes only looted half of Prague, but ok). Well, France didn´t loose, but Austria technically gained control over the whole HRE. The peace mainly meant status quo. Some countries lost (Bohemia), some gained (Sweden, Austria).
War against the Nehterlands - some gains, ok. But not too much.
War of the Spanish Succession - Prince of France became the king of Spain, but he could never united it. Also, France lost some territory to Austria. So draw in the best.
French revolution - well, the enemies were French so this is as much win as it is lost, it depends who do you favour.
Napoleonic wars - temporarily big gains, but as Napoleon became too greedy, everybody united against him. His ambitions led him to Russia, where he lost pretty much all his soldiers (btw there are new facts about this - maybe it wasn´t winter, but bugs with diseases which killed most of his soldiers).
End of timeframe. After it, it got only worse. During the timeframe, France was quite strong on the paper, but usually it couldn´t achieve it´s ambitions (quite often it gained something but not as much as it can). I agree it´s failures are often made bigger than they were, but I wouldn´t glorify it either.

It is certainly the largest European country in existence because he sucked so much? If you look at its population, you have ethnic Spanish, French, Italian, German and Flemish in it (respectively near the border of all those countries). It is not so apparent thanks to "effective" education policy during XIXth and XXth century.
 

Sleight of Hand

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England's performance in the Hundred Years War is basically a case study in why "military commander" should not be a hereditary office. Crécy and Agincourt both have the same basic narrative: hot-blooded French commander launches frontal assault on a well-led English force with superior ranged capabilities in a prepared defensive position in bad weather.
Hey, don't forget Castillon, the blueprint for the Charge of the Light Brigade. ;)
 

Enewald

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In the Europa Universalis period, it took Prussia just a Frederick the Great and a handful of soldiers to fight all of the Great Powers to a standstill.

Now, what is your point again? This game is not about real life history, and it should have a mechanic to not let France win over all of Europe in the 15th century. Even for the reason it would have not been able to do so.

Every fight that Prussians fought brought them one step closer to their doom. They simply were surrounded from all sides, had manpower almost to zero, were nearly losing Berlin and their war chest; when the miracle of house Brandenburg saved them. :p
While Fredrick might have 10-10-10-10 stats as a leader, his nation would still bleed to death if one were to try playing Prussia in 7 years war in EU4.
Eventually the enemies learned to counter his oblique order and other tricks.

But eventually, the soldiers of his army also run out of shoes... now imagine marching a forced march with bare feet because your many year old boots have been completely worn off. :(
 

ParadogsGamer

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To get back to the OP's point about the BBB being oh so mighty, I don't think so.
In my game as Austria, I never saw the French army above 30K. I started with 66K as Austria and never saw any reason to grow it.
Ok they did fight the combined Iberian peninsular and won, but only to retake it's rightful provinces of Bearn and Roussilion.
Had they attacked me, I would have handed their asses to them.
So the BBB is nothing more that what a good coalition can handle.
 

Gustav91

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Indeed, but what is also true is that this wasn´t a war where all of Europe (+- Russia) fought against France. It was more like everybody against Habsburgs (even catholic France, because of the political reasons). Other than that in the timeframe.
Hundred years war. My God did France messed that one up. It won, barely, in the end. Saved by woman who was seeing ghosts. Personally I consider this a victory, but I hope we can agree on that it was tough one.
Wars in Italy - temporarily France won, but later was pushed back and back. Here, I would say France just had too many enemies. Something remained in it´s hands, but not as much as it hoped.
Thirty years war - we discussed that. France came there quite late and I have to admit it subsidized Sweden (which didn´t helped us, Swedes only looted half of Prague, but ok). Well, France didn´t loose, but Austria technically gained control over the whole HRE. The peace mainly meant status quo. Some countries lost (Bohemia), some gained (Sweden, Austria).
War against the Nehterlands - some gains, ok. But not too much.
War of the Spanish Succession - Prince of France became the king of Spain, but he could never united it. Also, France lost some territory to Austria. So draw in the best.
French revolution - well, the enemies were French so this is as much win as it is lost, it depends who do you favour.
Napoleonic wars - temporarily big gains, but as Napoleon became too greedy, everybody united against him. His ambitions led him to Russia, where he lost pretty much all his soldiers (btw there are new facts about this - maybe it wasn´t winter, but bugs with diseases which killed most of his soldiers).
End of timeframe. After it, it got only worse. During the timeframe, France was quite strong on the paper, but usually it couldn´t achieve it´s ambitions (quite often it gained something but not as much as it can). I agree it´s failures are often made bigger than they were, but I wouldn´t glorify it either.

Well if I summary your post I'll say they won the battles but not so much territory. They pushed the borders in north, east and south.
You can say the same about Sweden from 1611-1721. Victories, most victories for the armies but it all these successful campaigns and battles didn't pay of when you weight in the few disasters.
History are defined by small things. A random bullet in a kings head, a selfish CO, no ammo for cannons, captains that gets greedy and don't follow orders, a king that leaves in the dawn of a battle, cannons stuck in the mud, skirmishers that destroy supply lines, soldier/officers that don't follow their orders how to treat civilians, lies/harmful truths that are spread, paranoid kings/officers, incompetent commanders, unexpected weather, crop failure, a girl with orders from God, a storm that destroys a navy in port.
 

Sleight of Hand

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To get back to the OP's point about the BBB being oh so mighty, I don't think so.
In my game as Austria, I never saw the French army above 30K. I started with 66K as Austria and never saw any reason to grow it.
Ok they did fight the combined Iberian peninsular and won, but only to retake it's rightful provinces of Bearn and Roussilion.
Had they attacked me, I would have handed their asses to them.
So the BBB is nothing more that what a good coalition can handle.
They fought Iberia and won; you didn't fight them, but claim you could have won. Prove it. :D
 

ParadogsGamer

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Gustav91

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Not really true, they paid about 1/3 of the costs for four years or something like that. Sweden's involvement lasted ~18 years.

Actually they paid us after the war to for keeping a force in Svenska Pommern, I don't remember how big it was supposed to be for getting the subsides and it was supposed to cover a 1/3 of the cost. But still without the money it would have been even harder to maintain don't forget we were poor.
 

BoleslavLev

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Alas, this lead to one of the worlds greatest tragedies...

Now I really want to try a Brandenburg-Prussia game in Eu4! :D

I would´t say WW1 was the greatest tragedy, I have reserved WW2 for that. Big Prussia was somewhat responsible for WW1, but it was the Versailles peace system responsible for WW2 (in combination with other factors).

Back to France - big potential, player can make it really strong. AI should be able to slowly expand with it, but I don´t expect it will crush everybody around, especially not a cunning player.
 

Enewald

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Actually I have high hopes for stronger HRE buffer against France.
If you read some later updates in Peters Byzantium AAR, you notice the AI attaching large units to warleaders armies. Now imagine a 20k Austrian army versus 50k France army. The Austrian army gets joined by 60k of small German armies from small states that join the Emperor in protecting the HRE, all attaching themselves to Austrian armies.

In Eu3 those small armies would get themselves just killed, but with improved AI, if they work together with the Emperor the HRE just got seriously buffed.
 

Marco Dandolo

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France in 1492 is much stronger than in 1444/1453 or 1399. Players who are used to start at the earliest date can normally influence the road which France takes, before it can win the 100 Years War or gobble up all its vassals. In this scenario, France starts after this beginning phase and is much scarier.
 

Decimal

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They are really powerful, in every game I've played so far they have stomped Austria + major alliance web multiple times. Not sure what will stop them from eating up the majority of HRE post-1520 (maybe a coalition?).

They also attack the papal states very early in most games, thought the pope would have a coalition formed against them after that, but no one seems to form against France -_-
 

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Indeed, but what is also true is that this wasn´t a war where all of Europe (+- Russia) fought against France. It was more like everybody against Habsburgs (even catholic France, because of the political reasons). Other than that in the timeframe.
Hundred years war. My God did France messed that one up. It won, barely, in the end. Saved by woman who was seeing ghosts. Personally I consider this a victory, but I hope we can agree on that it was tough one.
Wars in Italy - temporarily France won, but later was pushed back and back. Here, I would say France just had too many enemies. Something remained in it´s hands, but not as much as it hoped.
Thirty years war - we discussed that. France came there quite late and I have to admit it subsidized Sweden (which didn´t helped us, Swedes only looted half of Prague, but ok). Well, France didn´t loose, but Austria technically gained control over the whole HRE. The peace mainly meant status quo. Some countries lost (Bohemia), some gained (Sweden, Austria).
War against the Nehterlands - some gains, ok. But not too much.
War of the Spanish Succession - Prince of France became the king of Spain, but he could never united it. Also, France lost some territory to Austria. So draw in the best.
French revolution - well, the enemies were French so this is as much win as it is lost, it depends who do you favour.
Napoleonic wars - temporarily big gains, but as Napoleon became too greedy, everybody united against him. His ambitions led him to Russia, where he lost pretty much all his soldiers (btw there are new facts about this - maybe it wasn´t winter, but bugs with diseases which killed most of his soldiers).
End of timeframe. After it, it got only worse. During the timeframe, France was quite strong on the paper, but usually it couldn´t achieve it´s ambitions (quite often it gained something but not as much as it can). I agree it´s failures are often made bigger than they were, but I wouldn´t glorify it either.

Hi,

A few points :

- About the Hundred Year War : there were several phases, but worth of note is that by the end of the 1380's, France had reversed nearly all the previous English gains, and was in a victorious position. Then, there was the second English phase of ascendency, and while it is true that Johan of Arc did much to contain them, she didn't win the war : it was superior French military organisation (created in great part by the Bureau brothers), weaponry (probably the best artillery in Christian Europe by the end of the war) and numbers that by 1453 had all but expelled the English from the continent, leaving the later bankrupt and divided, which led to bloody civil war. Look up the battles of Patay, Formigny or Castillon, they were crushing French victories on the scale of Azincourt or Crécy.


- About the Italian wars : year pretty much a strategic failure, although to it's credit France actually managed to survive and gain land, despite suffering attacks on both sides.

- Thirty Years War : France's intervention proved decisive, initially less by actual combat (that went catastrophically in the first few years, especially in 1636 with the fall of Corbie) than by financing Sweden (my own sources, Peter Wilson and his book about the war, give France financing half of the Swedish intervention) and by diverting Spanish and Austrian forces from the Empire. In the end, France crippled the Empire, and ended not only Spanish supremacy over Europe, but replaced it as major military power in 1659 at the end of the war.

- Several wars under Louis XIV : the main objective was 1/ to crush the Netherlands, which succeed in the end but only replaced them with the British, and 2/ to gain defensible borders, which he also attained by the end of his reign, and considerably enlarged his domain. Don't get me wrong : he was an intolerant warmonger. But not an expansionist one. And about the War of the Spanish Succession : France, versus the whole of Europe, managed not only to not lose territory, but also to have previous conquests recognized, and succeeded in it's main military objective to place a Bourbon on the Spanish throne, effectively removing a threat on it's southern border and making Spain an ally until 1808 (except for a brief period). On the other hand, while Britain and Austria who previously would accept nothing less than an Austrian candidate on the throne of Spain, had to relent but both got territorial compensations, in Belgium for Austria and in the colonies for Britain. The main losers of the war were the Netherlands, that came out of it exhausted, and Spain that was used as a bargaining chip for everybody involved.

- The 18th century was France's greatest military period : beyond the Seven Years War that was mentioned, she won : the war of the Quadruple alliance (fun fact : France and Britain never lost a war when on the same side.. at least until Afghanistan), the War of the Polish Succession, the War of the Austrian Succession (famous in France for the missed opportunity of keeping Belgium, which the king stupidly relinquished in favour of appearing as an "arbiter of Europe"), failed in the Seven Years War, won the American War of Independence and massively succeeded in the first two Coalitions in the revolutionary war, that ended in 1800 by leaving France as Europe's superpower, dominating Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium, allied with a basically vassal Spain and controlling much of Germany and Switzerland.

=> So yeah. The BBB makes sense.. but I agree that the HRE should be able, at least in some games, to contain it. And I hope to see other countries, ie Austria, Spain and especially Poland and Russia to Blob.
 

Gustav91

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Hi,

A few points :

- About the Hundred Year War : there were several phases, but worth of note is that by the end of the 1380's, France had reversed nearly all the previous English gains, and was in a victorious position. Then, there was the second English phase of ascendency, and while it is true that Johan of Arc did much to contain them, she didn't win the war : it was superior French military organisation (created in great part by the Bureau brothers), weaponry (probably the best artillery in Christian Europe by the end of the war) and numbers that by 1453 had all but expelled the English from the continent, leaving the later bankrupt and divided, which led to bloody civil war. Look up the battles of Patay, Formigny or Castillon, they were crushing French victories on the scale of Azincourt or Crécy.


- About the Italian wars : year pretty much a strategic failure, although to it's credit France actually managed to survive and gain land, despite suffering attacks on both sides.

- Thirty Years War : France's intervention proved decisive, initially less by actual combat (that went catastrophically in the first few years, especially in 1636 with the fall of Corbie) than by financing Sweden (my own sources, Peter Wilson and his book about the war, give France financing half of the Swedish intervention) and by diverting Spanish and Austrian forces from the Empire. In the end, France crippled the Empire, and ended not only Spanish supremacy over Europe, but replaced it as major military power in 1659 at the end of the war.

- Several wars under Louis XIV : the main objective was 1/ to crush the Netherlands, which succeed in the end but only replaced them with the British, and 2/ to gain defensible borders, which he also attained by the end of his reign, and considerably enlarged his domain. Don't get me wrong : he was an intolerant warmonger. But not an expansionist one. And about the War of the Spanish Succession : France, versus the whole of Europe, managed not only to not lose territory, but also to have previous conquests recognized, and succeeded in it's main military objective to place a Bourbon on the Spanish throne, effectively removing a threat on it's southern border and making Spain an ally until 1808 (except for a brief period). On the other hand, while Britain and Austria who previously would accept nothing less than an Austrian candidate on the throne of Spain, had to relent but both got territorial compensations, in Belgium for Austria and in the colonies for Britain. The main losers of the war were the Netherlands, that came out of it exhausted, and Spain that was used as a bargaining chip for everybody involved.

- The 18th century was France's greatest military period : beyond the Seven Years War that was mentioned, she won : the war of the Quadruple alliance (fun fact : France and Britain never lost a war when on the same side.. at least until Afghanistan), the War of the Polish Succession, the War of the Austrian Succession (famous in France for the missed opportunity of keeping Belgium, which the king stupidly relinquished in favour of appearing as an "arbiter of Europe"), failed in the Seven Years War, won the American War of Independence and massively succeeded in the first two Coalitions in the revolutionary war, that ended in 1800 by leaving France as Europe's superpower, dominating Italy, the Netherlands and Belgium, allied with a basically vassal Spain and controlling much of Germany and Switzerland.

=> So yeah. The BBB makes sense.. but I agree that the HRE should be able, at least in some games, to contain it. And I hope to see other countries, ie Austria, Spain and especially Poland and Russia to Blob.

Good summary! :)
 

BoleslavLev

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It is more precise than what I said and it corrects me here and there. I have to admit my knowledge of history are smaller every day. :sad: But I think the general image prevails. The BBB is strong (as it should be) but not immortal (especially in 1444 before it swallows most of it´s vassals).

Spain going for colonies wouldn´t blob as much in my opinion (in Europe). It could go for Africa, Italy or even France (though it would be hard).

Austria will definitely blob (in 90% if player don´t stop it). HRE is usually it´s big playground. Maybe Bavaria, Bohemia or Brandenburg could surprise (or Burgundy, but I wouldn´t count on that).

Poland is huge enough when it gain Lithuania. I´d like to see it strong, but it has many internal problem (at the start of the game). Slightly worse tech than westerners, totally wrong culture and religion (in Lithuania). But I wish him the best. ;)

And finally I hope Russia would be able to either colonize Siberia or go to conquer a) Eastern and/or Northern Europe b) Crimea, Turkey, Georgia - maybe even going to Persia etc. In EU3 it usually didn´t conquer neither colonize good enough. It wasn´t small, but it wasn´t big either.