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Sparrow

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Just start making plans for a Balkan mod with events. If, on release, anything in the game doesn't work the way you want it start applying what you think is missing. If lucky, you'll get included on one of the big mods that most people I know wind up playing in favor of the vanilla version as time goes on.
 

unmerged(10945)

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Originally posted by Zagys
I'm growing tired of all these people who want to play as small parts of existing empires. Edit the game if you absolutely must play as Romania, or Poland, or Finland.
I agree. If the country wasn't able to make all it's decisions because of its overlord, it wasn't an independent country. Release it at the start of the game then change to it if you want to play as whatever country, but the startups for each scenario should be as historical as possible.
 

unmerged(10945)

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Originally posted by Grosshaus
I agree, but that's why there are satellites.
True, but we really don't know enough to know if something like that is possible. If it is, I would agree some countries should be a bit broken up. But only if the game lets the master country control some important aspects of the other, like foriegn policy and such.
 

unmerged(3474)

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That is a very nice map, but I don't agree that it shows Wallachia, Moldavia or Bosnia as being independent. It indicates that Albania, Macedonia, Seres (?) and Thessalonia are also within the Ottoman Empire with the same amount/lack of autonomy. Moreover, Hungary, Dalmatia and Siebenbürgen are represented in the same manner, yet these were not autonomous from the Austian empire.
 

The historian

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well i'don't know about the rest but in 1835
Greece indpendent since 1820
Serbia vassal self-governing own army
Montenegro vassal self governing own army
Wallachia vassal self governing own army russian protectorate and constitution from 1832
Moldavia same as wallachia
These should all be playable unlike all the other territory's in the balkan's ruled by ottomans or habsburg they had no governors their own laws and army's they should be defently be playable.And as for the map it's austrian so that explain's (there is no need for anyone else or for the romanians in the empire to know there are countries in that region we can say that we took them from ottoman land should we conquer them not annexed another country (propaganda))it and if it were accurate who united in 1859 if they didn't exist.
If they weren't it would be the first and biggest disapointement paradox gave me.
 
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Tunch Khan

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That was a real cool map!!! I even found the town where my grandfather was born. He kept on saying he spent his childhood in Vodina, but i always failed to find it in Greek maps. Instead there was another city named Edessa in modern maps. That was a very nice surprise. Back to the topic now;

At the time Victoria starts, Wallachia and Moldova were two different vassal states with their armies. Their rulers had to be appointed by Istanbul and they had to visit Istanbul to show their allegiance to the Sultan. They paid taxes and were obliged to send their troops to assist Ottomans. In 1859, Alexandr Cuza united the two thrones and was appointed the "Bey" (Prince) of Eflak and Bogdan. The union, however was supposed to be for Cuza's reign only. He paid an allegiance visit to Istanbul in 1860. In 1866 he closed the parliaments in Wallachia and Moldova. He was toppled down the same year by a coup d'etat and revolutionists chose Leopold, Comte de Flandre, and brother of King of Belgium as their new ruler. Leopold refused the throne. So they chose Prince Karl of the Hohenzollern Dynasty as Prince of Rumania.
Karl came to Istanbul to receive his crown and to show his allegiance. With the pressures from Austria-Hungary and other states, Ottomans accepted the unification of Principality of Rumania under their sovereignity. Up until 1878 Rumania preserved it's institutional allegiance to Ottomans.

Greece was independent since 1829, no question. But did not include Crete until 1913.

Serbia, just like Montenegro, was an Ottoman province in 1835. In 1829 Edirne (Adrianopolis) Agreement, Serbia was given some kind of authonomy, a Serbian Governor appointed by Istanbul. However, they did not become an independent or vassal state. It was a province of Ottoman Empire with some extra rights. The situation was almost identical to Beiruth. They were not allowed to have any military force. There were temporary revolts which was suppressed by modernized Ottoman army, that also included Greek Martolos Guards and Albanian irregulars. The final revolt in Serbia and Montenegro led to the Russo-Turkish war in 1877.

The 1878 St.Stefanos Peace Agreement was the hardest agreement Ottomans had to sign until that day.With St.Stefanos;

- Ottomans granted independence to Rumania, Serbia and Montenegro.
- Nish ceded to Serbia.
- Montenegro gains port in Adriatic.
- Rumania ceded Basserabia to Russia but gained Dobrudja (Port in Black Sea)
- Bulgaria raised as an authonomus vassal principality and the prince should be "elected" by the people!
- Bulgaria reaches from Aegean to Danube.
- Kars, Ardahan, Batum and Beyazid ceded to Russia.
- Bosnia i Herzegovina's status unclear, re-regulations to be made by Ottomans, but were open to investigation by Russians and Austria-Hungarians.
- Some provinces of Albania, Macedonia and Tyrhalia gains authonomy.
- Crete gains authonomus rule.
- Ottomans agree to pay heavy war reparations to Russia.
- Russians to investigate the regulations in European provinces of Ottomans.
- Russian merchants gain extra rights.

European states were furious of Russian gains and influence in the Balkans. Ottomans bribed Britain with the "temporary" control of Cyprus for the arrangement of a new peace agreement.

13 June 1878, Berlin Peace Conference meets;

- Authonomus Bulgaria's borders narrowed. No access to Aegean.
- Eastern Rumelia, taken from Bulgarians, given to Ottomans with a christian governor appointed by Istanbul.
- Full Ottoman control over the rest of European Ottoman provinces.
- Bosnia i Herzegovina to be a vassal state of Ottomans, but governed by Austria-Hungarians.
- Independence of Rumania, Serbia and Montenegro confirmed.
- Ottomans take Beyazid back from Russians.
- Danube closed to war vessels.
- Straits to be preserved as stated as 1841 London Agreement.
- War reparations to Russia mainly reduced.

Conclusion;

- Russia was frustrated with Germany's support to Austria.
- Wilhelm II quit the pro-Russian, balance of power diplomacy of Bismarck.
- Balance of Power desroyed. Russia shifts towards Britain and France.
- Ottoman Parliament abolished.
- Great reformer and founder of parliamentary system, Prime Minister Mithad Pasha got trialed and executed.
- Moslem people of Bosnia i Herzegovina declare independence and revolt against Austria-Hungary.
- Moslem Albanians in newly acquired territories of Serbia and Montenegro revolt.
- Britain establishes her power in Cyprus. Now closer to and more interested in Egypt.
 
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unmerged(19173)

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The Balkan nationalism today is running as high as in the 19th and 20th centuries, now I can see why the Balkans are the powder keg of Europe.

OK back on the topic. There ware a series of revolts in 1821, 1848, which ware smashed by the Otomans with the help of Russia and Austira. Only after the Crimean war on Paris Peace Congress (February-March 1856) the two principalities got some autonomy and become vasals. It is 21 years after 1835.

The following quote is from the Roumanian Embassy web site on hystory of Roumania.

The hopes for a change in Wallachia found their expression in the revolution led by Tudor Vladimirescu (1821). Despite the fact that the Ottoman and Tsarist troops put down the movement, the revolution led, nevertheless, to the abolition of the Phanariote regime and the appointing of native princes to the thrones of Moldavia and Wallachia.

The Peace Treaty signed in Adrianople in 1829, putting an end to the Russian-Turkish conflict of 1828-1829, considerably diminished the Ottoman suzerainty in the Romanian principalities, enhancing, on the other hand, Russia’s “protectorate”. Freedom of trade regained impetus, the Romanian grains started to be bought on the European markets.

In 1848, the revolutionary movements extended to the Romanian principalities as well, bringing remarkable names to the forefront of the political scene: Ion Heliade-Radulescu, Nicolae Balcescu, Mihail Kogalniceanu, Simion Barnutiu, Avram Iancu a.o. In Moldavia the movements were soon stifled, but in Wallachia the revolutionaries actually stayed in power from June to September 1848. In Transylvania, the revolution lasted until 1849; the incapacity of the Magyar leaders to understand the justness of the Romanians’ demands, and the forementioned leaders’ decision to help Hungary annex Transylvania led to a split of the Romanian and Magyar revolutionary forces. The attempt of the Hungarian government to stop the Romanians’ struggle came up against the fierce armed resistance led by Avram Iancu in the Apuseni Mountains. Despite the brutal intervention by the Ottoman, Tsarist and Hapsburg armies, in 1848-1849, the renewing democratic ideas were assimilated all over the Romanian territories in the decade to follow.

After the War of Crimea (1853-1856), the status of the Romanian Principalities (Wallachia and Moldavia) acquired, at the Paris Peace Congress (February-March 1856), the dimensions of a European issue. Still under Ottoman suzeranity, Wallachia and Moldavia were placed under the guarantee of the seven powers signatories of the Paris Treaty. These decided to call a local meeting to pronounce on the future organization of the two principalities. The Paris Treaty also stipulated the retrocession, by Moldavia, of the southern part of Bassarabia. In 1857, the assemblies stipulated by the decisions of the 1856 Paris Peace Congress, were summoned in Bucharest and Iasi. They voted for the union of the two principalities. The seven protecting powers did, only to a small extent, endorse the Romanians claims. In Moldavia, on January 5-17, 1859, and in Wallachia, on January 24-February 5, 1859, the Romanians elected Alexandru Ioan Cuza as unique prince, achieving thus de facto, the union of the two principalities. On January 24-February 5, 1862, the Romanian nation state took the name of Romania, with Bucharest as the capital. Together with Mihail Kogalniceanu, his closest counsellor and co-worker, Alexandru Ioan Cuza initiated a programme of reforms to further update the structures of the Romanian society and state.
 
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Alexandru H.

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I don't think the originator of this thread thought about "The Balkan nationalism today" when he asked some informations concerning three states. I still say this discussion is better suited for the history thread....and I still say "You're wrong"...please, try to refer to the original subject.....
 

unmerged(19173)

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Originally posted by Alexandru H.
I don't think the originator of this thread thought about "The Balkan nationalism today" when he asked some informations concerning three states. I still say this discussion is better suited for the history thread....and I still say "You're wrong"...please, try to refer to the original subject.....

I give up. Cannot find better facts.:rofl:
 

Alexandru H.

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I can give facts, I just don't like to give them here...it is not a history thread after all...and, of course, I would be as biased as my embassy....:p
 

Emre Yigit

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Originally posted by Alexandru H.
I don't think the originator of this thread thought about "The Balkan nationalism today" when he asked some informations concerning three states. I still say this discussion is better suited for the history thread....and I still say "You're wrong"...please, try to refer to the original subject.....

Imagine the conflagration in MP if all participants chose one independent / almost independent / autonomous / semi-autonomous / barely autonomous country each to play. Would make for a fantastic AAR. But all that is beside the point, and OT.

Me, I'd say that if Egypt is playable, so should Serbia, Wallachia and Moldavia be. I think the map referred to is wrong - and frankly, if ever I play the OE in Vic, I'd welcome the breathing space between 1835 and 1856 rather than have the pesky Serbians, Wallachians and Moldavians revolting anew. For S., W., M. and Egypt, the situation that best represents the historical reality as I see it is good old fashioned EU2-type "vassalage" with the added oomph that: S., W. & M. should be allied with OE
and have next-to-no manpower to reflect strict limits on troops.

My favourite on-line map for this period is unfortunately extremely confusing, but here it is anyway :D

Ottoman1683_Shepherd.jpg
 
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Emir can you change that to a link? The map screws up the forum view for me.


And I agree with you. If Egypt is playable then so should Serbia, Montenegro and the Danubian Principalities.
 

Chengar Qordath

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It is a nice map, but the print on the bottom says it is from 1910, a little late, is it not?
 
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re Sytass

Still, the countries were under official overrule from Constantinople/Istanbul. As was Finland or Congress Poland with regards to St. Petersburg, or Norway to Stockholm.

As I understand there will be no vasall/protectorate states in game. If so I would agree with you. If there will be vasall/protectorate states in my opinion Congress Poland should be one of them (but with limited autonomy).
 
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By the way Serbia was vasall of Ottoman Empire in 1835 and it is really out of historical fact for me that it won't be playable vasall in Vic.

re The historian
Full agree with you, even Polish historians knows that Serbia had autonomy in 1835 ;) I heard about it when I was studying history on Jagiellonian University. But maybe professors of history are wrong for some people :confused:
 
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Dark Knight

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Originally posted by Dzoser
By the way Serbia was vasall of Ottoman Empire in 1835 and it is really out of historical fact for me that it won't be playable vasall in Vic.
And how do you know which countries will be playable in the Victoria Grand Campaign?
 
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re Dark Knight

from post of ejs421
I saw a small screenshot on another site of the 1835 country setup, and Serbia, Moldavia and Wallachia didn't exist!

So this screenshot doesn't exist?

from post of Sytass

Serbia - while having some autonomy, but still with Turkish troops within her borders - was not recognized as independent until after the 1877 Russo-Turkish war.

So Sytass wrote wrong? There will be playable Serbia? That's what you mean?
By the way from this point of view Sweden shouldn't be playable in EUII, too.