The Balkans in 1835

[unmerged(20874)]

I saw a small screenshot on another site of the 1835 country setup, and Serbia, Moldavia and Wallachia didn't exist! Weren't all three autonomous vassals of the Sultan by 1835? It would suck not to be able to play Romania or Serbia for the entire game. Mid-level powers are always the most fun IMHO, especially in such a volatile area as the Balkans. So, playtesters, has the initial setup been changed?
Romania will probably be one of my first games, let's see, after the unification of Wallachia and Moldavia they should get CB's on just about all their neighbors (Bessarabia, Transylvania, South Dobruja) Or, play as Serbia and try to contest Austria's annexation of Bosnia...

 

[unmerged(10371)]

unfortunetly, they cant tell you anything cause of the NDA or whatever, only patric can answer that

 

[Syt]

Serbia - while having some autonomy, but still with Turkish troops within her borders - was not recognized as independent until after the 1877 Russo-Turkish war.

 

[Alexandru H.]

All I can tell (I hope it's in the limits of the NDA) is that Victoria strives to be 100% historical. So just consider that the guys chose the best solution within that requirement....

 

[unmerged(19173)]

Greece was free in 1828, try it. All the rest ware still part of the Otoman empire

 

[Alexandru H.]

The history forums would be more appropriate for my reply, but here goes: "You're wrong".

 

[unmerged(19173)]

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
The history forums would be more appropriate for my reply, but here goes: "You're wrong".

I the game facts you might be right, but historicly I am.


This is a map of the Balkans from 1856, which is after 1835.

 

[Alexandru H.]

He he he!

Using another American map, are we?:rofl:

Ok, what is wrong about it:

1. Moldavia and Wallachia continued their existences from the 14th century with no problems till 1859...not independent, of course, but autonomous...in 1832 they receive their first constitutions, even before their overlords Russia and the Ottoman Empire....can a simple province have a constitution, prince, own army, laws? I think not

2. Muntenegro and Serbia are also missing....Muntenegro already won a recognition from the Ottoman Empire...Serbia is again one of the missing big boys...

My advice? Ask Demetrios,he will give better reasons....

 

[Syt]

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
He he he!

Using another American map, are we?:rofl:

From the writings/spellings on the map, 19th century Germany/Austria.

 

[unmerged(19173)]

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
He he he!

Using another American map, are we?:rofl:

Ok, what is wrong about it:

1. Moldavia and Wallachia continued their existences from the 14th century with no problems till 1859...not independent, of course, but autonomous...in 1832 they receive their first constitutions, even before their overlords Russia and the Ottoman Empire....can a simple province have a constitution, prince, own army, laws? I think not

2. Muntenegro and Serbia are also missing....Muntenegro already won a recognition from the Ottoman Empire...Serbia is again one of the missing big boys...

My advice? Ask Demetrios,he will give better reasons....

The map is Austiran, if you had a look.
Sorry if I present facts which differ from your belives.

 

[Zagys]

I'm growing tired of all these people who want to play as small parts of existing empires. Edit the game if you absolutely must play as Romania, or Poland, or Finland.

 

[unmerged(15764)]

thats a pretty cool map!

 

[unmerged(11633)]

Regardless of the situation of the Balkans in 1835, the key test for me will be to show how the Balkans developed throughout the 19th century.

The effects of rising nationalism, great power interference and econmic and social changes will be difficult to model, but I await to see how it will occur.

 

[Alexandru H.]

This is not because of a certain desire to play Romania or Yugoslavia or Poland...it's the necessity to follow historical truth...the map is wrong, period, ask anybody with a slight knowledge of European History....

 

[unmerged(11633)]

Yes, it's wrong. Maybe it'll be changed before the release.

 

[Syt]

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
This is not because of a certain desire to play Romania or Yugoslavia or Poland...it's the necessity to follow historical truth...the map is wrong, period, ask anybody with a slight knowledge of European History....

Still, the countries were under official overrule from Constantinople/Istanbul. As was Finland or Congress Poland with regards to St. Petersburg, or Norway to Stockholm.

By the same reasoning, you might demand an independently playable Hungary. I tried to find maps 1830 - 1840 (historic and current) depicting an independent Serbia, but so far I failed.

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Originally posted by Sytass
Still, the countries were under official overrule from Constantinople/Istanbul. As was Finland or Congress Poland with regards to St. Petersburg, or Norway to Stockholm.

By the same reasoning, you might demand an independently playable Hungary. I tried to find maps 1830 - 1840 (historic and current) depicting an independent Serbia, but so far I failed.

Serbia wasn't indipedent, but it wasn't a part of the Ottoman empire as well
It was a vassal, it has an indipedent inner politics, paid some taxes to the porte, but had an own army etc..., I hope the EU2 style vassalasition are included.

 

[unmerged(20874)]

They weren't "independent" but...

The point is, even if Wallachia, Moldavia and Serbia weren't independent in the sense of being generally recognized as such in the international community, they were in the sense of governing themselves while giving lip service to Ottoman rule by paying tribute. By the same logic of some of the above posts, Egypt shouldn't exist at all either, and the American Civil War should be depicted as an EU2-style pitchfork-wielding peasant revolt. Lots of countries in Victoria's timespan had de facto independence and had to wait decades for de jure independence through recognition and treaties and such.

 

[unmerged(11633)]

Portion of "General-Karte von Europa" by J. Scheda, 1859.

http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/Balkans_1859.jpg

Shows Wallachia but not serbia as being indepedent. ?

This map shows Ottoman decline, but is recent. Serbia, Wallachia and Moldavia are listed as autonomous.

http://www.naqshbandi.org/ottomans/maps/declinemap.gif

This map shows serbia as a "principality" in 1829 and independent 1878, kingdom 1882.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/ottoman_dismemberment.jpg

(Historical atlas by Shepard, 1926)- Not from the right timeframe.

Anyway, the status of "vassals" is unclear at this stage.

 

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by ejs421
I saw a small screenshot on another site of the 1835 country setup, ...

This screenshot is not necessarily accurate.