The backside of WWII

[Brasidas]

i think we should elect a damned dirty infantryman. we might not have book smarts' but we will tell you the truth, and we will cut the stupidity. instead of spending money reserching equipment designed to fight an enemy that nolonger exists. i would reserch the stuff that matters a better rifle and better trucks not a new submarine

Maybe somebody who can make informed decisions makes sense, but politicians make bad choices because there can be a chance (omg!) of a handful of soldiers dying too.

This isn't an appeasement vs. intervention thing, sometimes the world's a little more complicated than quagmires and domino effects.

Letting the world go to hell, standing aside in mass slaughters like Rwanda might have been a mistake veteran heads of state might not have made. Maybe some ex-soldiers would have done the same thing as was done. But it has to do with making just and informed choices rather than researching advanced assault rifles.

Though researching tactical nukes and neural weaponry scares me.

 

[unmerged(39030)]

I don't know if this means anything to you or if it's just perceived as an empty gesture from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about - but I have the utmost respect for your service and the sacrifices that came with- and after it. Thank you, however little that's worth.

thats ok i understand and respect your opinion. everyone is entitled to their opinions. hell thats what i am fighting for the right for all you guys on here to argue and fight and disagree with each other. i have seen the rest of the world and they do not have the right to speak their minds like you people do. everyone forms their opinions based on their expieriances .and how they were raised .so anyone here feel free to argue with me anytime. just dont call me or anyone else stupid for their opinions. and this part goes to anyone that does say stuff like that. by calling them stupid you will show the world how stupid you are

 

[unmerged(20917)]

thats ok i understand and respect your opinion. everyone is entitled to their opinions. hell thats what i am fighting for the right for all you guys on here to argue and fight and disagree with each other. i have seen the rest of the world and they do not have the right to speak their minds like you people do. everyone forms their opinions based on their expieriances .and how they were raised .so anyone here feel free to argue with me anytime. just dont call me or anyone else stupid for their opinions. and this part goes to anyone that does say stuff like that. by calling them stupid you will show the world how stupid you are

Hi, though I am not an American, I solute you for your service for your country and your open mind.

I agree with you that politicians suck, communist ones or democratic ones.

 

[Brasidas]

I'm not calling your ideas stupid, if that was a reference to me. I just have a slightly different take. I was going career military, like much of my family has done and continues to do, but my plans have changed since high school. Heinlein had some interesting ideas about franchise, but I don't believe I'm showing the world that I lack intelligence by disagreeing with you.

My own opinions are from the experiences passed onto me by my friends and family, and yes, my own experiences as a reservist. I read, I follow current events, I stay informed of my dad's friends dying off from crap they breathed in '91.

I hadn't thought my post would read as disrespect towards you, I do in fact agree with some of what you had to say, but I simply wished to raise the point that politicians not only waste soldiers' lives but make bad choices based upon the possibility of a single serviceman dying.

Troops should be treated with respect. They should not be wasted, and they should receive proper care by the state after their service. But if its for a just and achievable cause, politicians shouldn't be afraid to use them.

 

[Cerber]

piliticians

People say only bad things about them.
They are stupid, unhonrable, they always lie.....
But my question is then: who choose them ??
Doesn`t it say something about us?? Wasn`t Hitler take the power in democratic way ?
People have politics as wothy as they are.

 

[unmerged(42432)]

Wasn`t Hitler take the power in democratic way ?

Democracy isn't about choosing the right guy.
It's about choosing the less wrong guy.

 

[unmerged(23241)]

Democracy isn't about choosing the right guy.
It's about choosing the less wrong guy.

Democracy means choosing your leaders and letting them decide what you can do or not do.

 

[Archangel85]

People say only bad things about them.
They are stupid, unhonrable, they always lie.....
But my question is then: who choose them ??
Doesn`t it say something about us?? Wasn`t Hitler take the power in democratic way ?
People have politics as wothy as they are.

hitler did not come into power in a democratic way (NSDAP never had the majority in the Reichstag, in the last free election they were actually loosing votes), he came into power ina legal way - choosen by president Hindenburg. After he banned all opposition, of course, you couldn't really talk about a democratic germany anymore...

 

[Braedonnal]

This really is a great thread. I am impressed by both the fact that those that have posted have a realistic idea of the horrible business that war is and also by the openness of some posters as well.

Myself, I was a US Navy man, a submariner in fact. Navy life was pretty easy as after the fall of the Soviet Union there wasn't much to worry about (though Cold War submarine work was extremely hazardous which I fortunately missed).

Yet, though you don't quite have that same personal in your face that say an Army soldier or Marine might have, you still have that feeling of dread when you get that order to launch Tomahawks. You know that in a few minutes or even a couple hours, people are going to meet their maker be it God, Allah, Buddha, even Zeus if your old school, whoever. That some people aren't bothered in the slightest are those that I fear (and fear for) the most.

I suppose that's why it becomes the 'target'. It depersonalizes things. You sink ships but don't kill the men abroad the ship.

I imagine if all those politicans that have no qualms about ordering troops to their deaths had served in wars themselves that just maybe they might not be so willing to go to war themselves. Then again, what do most of them care? Most wars tend to be "rich man's wars and a poor man's fights."

Boy, aren't I a bitter cuss? I'll stop now I think. Peace.

 

[unmerged(38672)]

WW2 really was a ghastly, brutal war. It makes me sometimes feel a bit guilty to play it out as entertainment in a game.

 

[unmerged(26510)]

Nice thread.

Wars are never good. If war could be avoided - it should be.
President Bush says that he invaded Iraq becuase SH supported terrorists... which we know is bullshit - he did it for econmical reasons (probably). I know this hasn't to do with ww2, but I couldnt resist...

Anyway wars sucks in real-life, but are fun in the gaming world...


"Don't try this at home!"

Wars are started by those: Males, ugly, insane.

 

[MAC]

the mad russian, you are my hero
And its meant as I say it, really surprised and pleased to see that there is still hope if there are more people like you.

The point is that power corrupts. The intention of an Ideology is usually corrupted by politicians/leaders who are secretly looking to increase their power or to achieve total power. This is true not only for Ideologies like Socialism but also for the Democracy...

Democracy can only really work if all people try to stay informed and use their own mind instead of believing everything they hear. Be it from TV, newspapers, neighbours, etc. If the majority does not Propaganda can do its work and brainwash people. It becomes suddenly "unpatriotical" do say this or think that and people nowadays might loose their job over it, what is more subtle then loosing your life in 1939+. Still it puts huge pressure on people, what do you do without money? What about your family children etc?
Shouldnt look real freedom a little bit different? Are you really "unpatriotical" just for having a different point of view then your gouvernment? Isnt Democracy based on discussion?

Actually I am very concerned about economical and political developments.
People simply stride for total control instead of realizing that you have to give your "opponent" some air to breathe. Since most people dont want to be involved into politics a strong leadership is for sure needed - but from someone who cares also for others and not only for his own profit. Nowadays people who care for others rarely make it up the career ladder, because you have to use your elbows and have to be compliant. Thats why democracy is in danger. Economical it also makes no sense to devaluate "manual" work more and more to produce at low costs and on the other hand loosing buying power. Work should pay out - but the difference between worker and management and between real work and investing money is ever growing and IMHO a danger. Not to speak of the usage of energy for "just in time" and that many people actually dont care about but what might get the biggest problem for mankind ever in a few decades.

I could go on some more, but basically it comes all down to "we get what we deserve" and "try to do what you preach" - not only predicting to keep up morale and virtues but to actually really do so. Its funny that especially in the name of virtues and morale so many bad things happened and still happen because people are not aware and believe everything.

When it comes to the future of mankind I am a real pessimist. I think there will be a WWIII or revolutions or "big brother". Still I try to make the best out of it, running my own lil company and prolly will even have children.

This isn't an appeasement vs. intervention thing, sometimes the world's a little more complicated than quagmires and domino effects.

Yes, the world is unfortunately more complicated then it seems.
That would also the infantrymen get very fast. Even though his intentions would be good and he would want to save his nation (and maybe lead the whole world into a new era of humanity) he would probably be defamed and attacked with unfair methods from its enemies (if he really intends to change something). And the publicity will once more not use its own mind but believe every crap they hear and he would either be forced to do it the same way all the other politicians do their business or to resign.

 

[unmerged(39030)]

I'm not calling your ideas stupid, if that was a reference to me. I just have a slightly different take. I was going career military, like much of my family has done and continues to do, but my plans have changed since high school. Heinlein had some interesting ideas about franchise, but I don't believe I'm showing the world that I lack intelligence by disagreeing with you.

My own opinions are from the experiences passed onto me by my friends and family, and yes, my own experiences as a reservist. I read, I follow current events, I stay informed of my dad's friends dying off from crap they breathed in '91.

I hadn't thought my post would read as disrespect towards you, I do in fact agree with some of what you had to say, but I simply wished to raise the point that politicians not only waste soldiers' lives but make bad choices based upon the possibility of a single serviceman dying.

Troops should be treated with respect. They should not be wasted, and they should receive proper care by the state after their service. But if its for a just and achievable cause, politicians shouldn't be afraid to use them.

that wasn't a reference to you or anyone in particular .it was for some people in other threads that i saw just being rude, and acting like everyone elses opinions were wrong. i was just trying to say that those people are showing everyone else disrespect when they do that, and are just showing them selves to be stupid themselves, especially when they argue history everyone that has studied history more then a day knows there are many different versions of the past depending on who you ask.most of them depend on preferences and such.

i can understand everything about gulf war syndrome. it is real i have many friends that have been messed up since they returned and the govenment tells them that nothing is wrong with them .i have heard army doctors call them fakers. i know these people most of them are so messed they can even barly work, and VA wont even help get them a pension. because they say that nothing is wrong with them, and it is all in their minds. its like that agent orange stuff with vietnam. they will wait until most of them have died before they will admit they messed up .

 

[StephenT]

I imagine if all those politicans that have no qualms about ordering troops to their deaths had served in wars themselves that just maybe they might not be so willing to go to war themselves.

It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. After all, Corporal Adolf Hitler of the 6th Bavarian Infantry Division was a decorated war hero and wounded in action. It didn't stop him starting WW2, did it?

 

[unmerged(11496)]

War is only funny in game, ...

And then only when you're winning.

That aside, you have a very valid point. War isn't hell - war is war and hell is hell and war is the worse of the two because it's something mankind does to itself.

 

[foid]

Stalin might be a bad guy, but what choice did he have except sacrifice all this lifes? The point is that russia was attacked. Imo this makes a big difference. And the allied lifes weren't wasted for nothing.

About the better rifles/trucks compared to new submarines question, what brings more money into some corporate pockets? And after all it's still the corporations that affect democratic goverments the most (you need their money for your elections and you need them to give jobs to the population).

And there is no army in the world where a life counts as much as in civilian society. No army would work if life was to much respected.

I realized that during my military service, when a nice looking female sergeant asked us (a bunch of 18 to 20 year old conscripts) what we would do if the guy next to us got a bullet into his belly. Being young and just out of a 2 weeks first aid training we told her a lot of things (bandaging him, bringing him to the first aid station etc). She just looked at us and told us that if we were nice guys we should stay and share is last cigarette with him and bring his dog tags after he passed, because even if he made it to the first aid station, they wouldn't take him to a hospital anyway. That's something you don't see in the movies...

War is hell and I feel sorry for everyone who participated in one. The only time my grandfather talked about his war experiences was on the day I was drafted. And he wasn't even in a combat unit (and spent most of the war as POW).

I strongly believe that there are times when you have to go to war, no matter what the price might be. But you better try any other option first. That's imo something that divides europeans and americans, first have a better idea what a war can do, while with the second just the veterans know what war really means.

 

[unmerged(39030)]

Stalin might be a bad guy, but what choice did he have except sacrifice all this lifes? The point is that russia was attacked. Imo this makes a big difference. And the allied lifes weren't wasted for nothing.

About the better rifles/trucks compared to new submarines question, what brings more money into some corporate pockets? And after all it's still the corporations that affect democratic goverments the most (you need their money for your elections and you need them to give jobs to the population).

And there is no army in the world where a life counts as much as in civilian society. No army would work if life was to much respected.

I realized that during my military service, when a nice looking female sergeant asked us (a bunch of 18 to 20 year old conscripts) what we would do if the guy next to us got a bullet into his belly. Being young and just out of a 2 weeks first aid training we told her a lot of things (bandaging him, bringing him to the first aid station etc). She just looked at us and told us that if we were nice guys we should stay and share is last cigarette with him and bring his dog tags after he passed, because even if he made it to the first aid station, they wouldn't take him to a hospital anyway. That's something you don't see in the movies...

War is hell and I feel sorry for everyone who participated in one. The only time my grandfather talked about his war experiences was on the day I was drafted. And he wasn't even in a combat unit (and spent most of the war as POW).

I strongly believe that there are times when you have to go to war, no matter what the price might be. But you better try any other option first. That's imo something that divides europeans and americans, first have a better idea what a war can do, while with the second just the veterans know what war really means.

are you russian ? i was born in russia (soviet union when it was around). i know where you are coming from.my older relatives all told me of the great patiotic war. my mom brought me to the us when i was still a teen


after i was old enough i joined the american army i have served with russian soldiers in kosovo and bosnia they do not complain as much as most of the western troops i have seen.

 

[unmerged(36417)]

I think generals treat real war pretty much like we do in HOI. I’m not sure you could order hundreds of thosands of men to their deaths if you looked at on a personal level. Imagine the french in WW1…

I could never live with myself if I was a general one screwup and you can end up costing the lives of tens of thosands of troops. It’s one thing to overextend my lines ingame and lose a division accidently for a real general to do that though I can’t imagine.

On Hitler and the war one thing that did happen as result of his experence in war. He vowed never to use posion gas I believe, expect in the case of jews. Who knows posion gas might have been used in war if not for Hilter’s experence in WW1.

 

[unmerged(39949)]

Lesser of 2 Evils

Mostly, not all politicians are all mouth and no substantive action that helps the common man as they see/live their world on the boob tube(TV). Who do you vote for when neither candidate/party expresses your viewpoint, the one that you hope is the lesser of 2 evils..... SEMPER FI Mad Russian, been there and done that. Proud of my service and wish it on no one.

 

[MAC]

It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. After all, Corporal Adolf Hitler of the 6th Bavarian Infantry Division was a decorated war hero and wounded in action. It didn't stop him starting WW2, did it?

Well, AFAIK Hitler was totally against the use of gas even if Germany could have really "needed" it because of his experiences in WWI... who knows what would have happened if he would have been just a politician without combat experience. But yes, combat experience does not make everybody a "good guy", but it might prevent the worst...

*Ah, oversaw Solus posted also about it

I strongly believe that there are times when you have to go to war, no matter what the price might be. But you better try any other option first. That's imo something that divides europeans and americans, first have a better idea what a war can do, while with the second just the veterans know what war really means.

Very well spoken, not much more to add.
Besides that Stalin at least got what he deserved when he died. People feared to be shot if he ever recovers and recognized that they have seen him so ill, so no one came in to help...