The backside of WWII

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I found this link to day, about the fightings on Seelow Heights, 60 year away
www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10119002


War is only funny in game, not in the real life.

Pzgeneral

 

[unmerged(14035)]

War is only funny in game, not in the real life.

Pzgeneral

50,000 KIA during a few days of fighting is quite a lot, or around 1/500 (0.2%) of all KIA during WWII. I have sometimes wondered if any of the generals or dictators during WWII looked upon the conduct of the war in the same way as we do when we play HoI, HoI2 or similar grand strategy games.

Btw if you want a more detailed account of the battle at Seelow heights you can check out this link.

 

[Gul Brown]

Yeah....however ,sadly, i doubt hitler or stalin ever for a minute looked at the mounting casualties and said "is it really worth it?"-all those homes with dead sons/fathers/husbands......makes you realise what it is you are playing

 

[Hartman]

Yeah, that reminds me of a certain quotation, from Hazlitt-"To have the welfare and lives of millions place at our disposal, is a sort of warrant, a challenge to squander them without mercy"
Unfortunately, Stalin and Hitler both took up that challenge...

 

[Osteles]

Yeah, that reminds me of a certain quotation, from Hazlitt-"To have the welfare and lives of millions place at our disposal, is a sort of warrant, a challenge to squander them without mercy"
Unfortunately, Stalin and Hitler both took up that challenge...

Not only those 2, what about Napoleon, Mao, ...

 

[Arilou]

Vonnegut has a quote somewhere (preface to Slaughterhouse 5?) where he says something to the effect of: "In all my years as a veteran, I've noticed that those who hated the war the most, they where those who had seen real combat."

 

[KILLER BOB]

i have 2 quotes that match this thread

The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. ~David Friedman

A great war leaves the country with three armies - an army of cripples, an army of mourners, and an army of thieves. ~German Proverb

 

[unmerged(9136)]

I have sometimes wondered if any of the generals or dictators during WWII looked upon the conduct of the war in the same way as we do when we play HoI, HoI2 or similar grand strategy games.

My guess is that actually they were worse.

Remember that, for example, Stalingrad was fought like that _only_ because the city was called "Stalin's City". That's it. It wasn't even worth as much industry as in HOI2, and much less after being bombed by both sides. Its only real value for both sides was... inflating a dictator's ego.

Remember that Kursk was fought only because Hitler had too big an ego to let Manstein bait the Russians into breaking through in Ukraine and hopefully be encircled. (A common tactic we use in HOI2.) Losing any ground, even temporarily, was just unthinkable.

Etc.

So basically I'd say that most HOI2 players actually play more sanely than those two did.

 

[unmerged(41155)]

Remember, it was Stalin that said himself; "The Death of one Man is a tragedy, a million is a statistic."

To him the ends justified the means. A pity for the 29-32 millions russian souls that perished during the war.

A staggering number, and each one was a individual human being.

Who was it that said it is a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it? Wasn't that from the american civil war?

-dave

 

[unmerged(26983)]

Surely 29-32 million dying to save 150million dying can't be that bad??

 

[unmerged(12556)]

Surely 29-32 million dying to save 150million dying can't be that bad??

It depends on how cold-blooded you want to be about it, the 29-32 million figure could have been reduced and how much military risk that reduction would entail. In other words, was it really required to sacrifice so many? And how many were sacrificed not to the Germans, but to Stalin's paranoia and fear?

 

[Gul Brown]

"a single death is a tradgedy, a million is just a statistic" i find that quote so chilling becaus its true ,also from the effect if a certain person with a name etc dies its more upsetting when deathr ates soar it becomes to hard to comprehend that many deaths its to many people to feel individualy sorry for..if you know what i mean :wacko: ....

 

[unmerged(30360)]

Who was it that said it is a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it? Wasn't that from the american civil war?

-dave

Robert E Lee.

 

[JASGripen]

"a single death is a tradgedy, a million is just a statistic" i find that quote so chilling becaus its true ,also from the effect if a certain person with a name etc dies its more upsetting when deathr ates soar it becomes to hard to comprehend that many deaths its to many people to feel individualy sorry for..if you know what i mean :wacko: ....

Yep was at Imperial War Museum some years ago, they had exhibition about WW I back then. In a long monter they had small lids were you could read some basics about a guy who had fallen. When you opened the lid all the stuff he had in his pockets were exposed in the box, a letter, pictures, well, stuff. That made a great deal of impression, compared with the horrendous over the top stories that they also told. Not that the latter were a piece of cake, but exposing the individual tragedy in the boxes had a greater impact.

 

[Gul Brown]

Yep was at Imperial War Museum some years ago, they had exhibition about WW I back then. In a long monter they had small lids were you could read some basics about a guy who had fallen. When you opened the lid all the stuff he had in his pockets were exposed in the box, a letter, pictures, well, stuff. That made a great deal of impression, compared with the horrendous over the top stories that they also told. Not that the latter were a piece of cake, but exposing the individual tragedy in the boxes had a greater impact.

exactly

 

[Archangel85]

well...wars tend to become self-sufficient....especially WWI is a great example....imagine, its 1916, both sides had millions in casulties - dead, crippled, missing. Should they just turn around and say "Oh, well, its madness and all...lets just end it....", it would mean that veryone who died, died in vain (of course, one might argue that in war, everyone essentially dies in vain...for there are no winners, just loosers of different degree...) .

 

[Gul Brown]

its true most die on vain....largely borders have not changed HUGELY in europe after ww2 [well after cold war ended and soviet collapse] however the war gave us large technological advancements so it was good in that respect and if there are any conspiracy theorists here it kept earths population down.....suppose the question is.....is land worth the blood of thousands? is steel/oil/gold whatever it is your chasing worth a 5 year old daughter never seeing her daddy again?

 

[unmerged(39030)]

my two cents

i have experianced war up close and personal myself. i have been in the army for 16 years i was in desert storm i have been to bosnia twice and kosovo once afghanistan once and i was in oif1 and three. i can honestly say even in a democracy the polititions do not care about the deaths other then to further their currers. have they ever carried their friends off a battle field, or helped uncover mass graves? i did in kosovo. have they been wounded? and felt the shrapnel of a roadside bomb rip through their chest? i did in iraq. do they dream about it, and wake up sceaming in cold sweat? i do. no they dont. when americans vote. we need to elect men that have seen that, and knows what it is. not some man that was in the gaurd or some guy that just was in support thats why i think we should elect a damned dirty infantryman. we might not have book smarts' but we will tell you the truth, and we will cut the stupidity. instead of spending money reserching equipment designed to fight an enemy that nolonger exists. i would reserch the stuff that matters a better rifle and better trucks not a new submarine that can nuke a city more efficent then the last model. i am sorry to rave a little normally i am a little quieter but i have known many familes where a five year old never saw her dad or mom again. or where they come back so disfigured that their own child is afraid to look at them. i will close now before i get even more long winded

 

[Xipe]

instead of spending money reserching equipment designed to fight an enemy that nolonger exists. i would reserch the stuff that matters a better rifle and better trucks not a new submarine that can nuke a city more efficent then the last model. i am sorry to rave a little normally i am a little quieter but i have known many familes where a five year old never saw her dad or mom again. or where they come back so disfigured that their own child is afraid to look at them. i will close now before i get even more long winded

Do understand that the US Armed Forces are putting all their effort in to the development of better equipment and doctrine (that suits this century). What you claim is kind of bitter, and I can understand some of that bitterness, but what you say is also not completely true.

What is true is that USA was forced into fighting a new kind of war it wasn't prepared to fight regarding equipment and doctrine. But don't doubt they're doing their utmost to overcome this ASAP.

I don't know if this means anything to you or if it's just perceived as an empty gesture from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about - but I have the utmost respect for your service and the sacrifices that came with- and after it. Thank you, however little that's worth.

 

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"a single death is a tradgedy, a million is just a statistic"

A million deaths are a million tragedies.