The ascencions have grown a bit stale

[Dorian Ertymexx]

We're thinking along similar lines. At this point I'm thinking of spawning multiple projects to differentiate WHO.

Good points. I'm thinking something like Vorlons without the encounter suit seeing as everyone knew you when you were "meat bags". Unsure of the political reaction to this --- lots of things to think about for sure. I love the flavor of even the Fallen Empires being in shock but concerned that if I push things to their logical conclusion that things may not be as fun as I'd like.

I'd like to leave a lot of that to internalized roleplay. After all the ascended may be 'gods' but that's with a little "g" .... the big G, in game terms, is sitting behind the keyboard

As for classes / strata / etc. I was initially thinking of a flat class structure ... I.E. they are all ascended. Given that I'm already thinking of creating new jobs, new strata, etc. having a couple of other new strata is an option.

Maybe once ascended you can get (or research) different ways of using your energy form. I am thinking, "ascended Soldier" (for invasion combat), a bit like the Ancients or Vorlons fight with their own energy, while being hard to take down - in short, an expensive, slow to build but powerful unit. Or political choices, like "drawing Power" from worshippers, that might require more food and amenities (representing a fatigued populace) but that perhaps increases Unity and/or Influence. Or something else. Or the opposite - enlightening people, your own or others, increasing efficiancy, but at a cost for the leadership. Perhaps spending Unity for hightened yiealds or Leadership XP rates. Some such.

Perhaps even using it offensively to create strife among enemy realms. (Interesting, by the way, how religion is not really implemented in this game - there is no way to influence or win over other nations through faith, no matter how spiritualistic they are.)

 

[Stadtpark]

This is a rephrased version of a comment I made on Reddit, but I think it's relevant enough to put here.

Stellaris doesn't really feel like sci-fi anymore. Any civilisation you might create feels mundane and familiar. Where are the civilisations like the Culture, the Imperium from Dune, the 40k Imperium of Man, the Republic from Star Wars, etc? Sure, you can try your hand at making a build in imitation of one of these, but the resemblance will be crude and superficial. Once you get down to it, all empires feel pretty much the same to play.

Your civilisation is pretty much the same in 2200 as it is in 2450, which - considering the incomprehensible technological advancement that occurs in that time - is ridiculous.

What we need is two new groups of civics: one from which you can choose a new civic at the start of the Mid-game, and one at the start of the End-game. These would be new developments in politics, power, society and government that reflect the huge cultural/technological/civilisational shifts your empire is going through. Think of the Spacer Guild from Dune, which has an exclusive monopoly over space travel; think of the Imperium of Man's hatred of technology; think of the Culture's intense genetic engineering AND their civilisational human/AI symbiosis. Think of how dynamic and distinct your empires could be with these kind of ideas.

I suppose this is kind of what Ascension Perks are supposed to be, but they are pretty lacklustre. They can be divided into three groups:

1) Megastructure/Ecumenopolis perks. These are perks which almost every player will take in every single game. They unlock fantastical stuff, but the fact that you will almost always take these perks means that they don't really give much flavour.

2) Synthetic, Biological and Psionic ascension paths. These felt pretty transcendental when they first came out, but now I think they feel limited and hackneyed. (And that's when they function properly). Sure, they are big changes in how your society works, but why are we restricted to these three? And why do they have no effect on the way your empire is run?

3) Marginal stat boosts. Bigger naval capacity, more ethics attraction, etc. You can normally wring some use out of these, but god knows they don't feel like 'Ascension'.

You know, it could be that my issues with all empires feeling pretty much the same to play wouldn't have to be solved with mechanical changes to how you play. They might just be solved with better and deeper flavour text. All I know is that, as things stand, Stellaris doesn't make me feel as if I am guiding a real interstellar civilisation, comprised of real people, through monumental changes.

I think it is for balancing reasons that you can't change towards the most extreme civics after the start.

Would it make for a more dramatic story if you could become a Hive Mind or Machine Intelligence or even just choose Fanatic Purifiers or Inward Perfection after some story related mid-game event ? Sure. But you would probably come up with new limitations, in order not to make it too powerful: e.g. that event only happening after each normal empire has become "pathetic" or even only after an FE awakened or an end-game-crisis was approaching, and you could somehow feel it / decide to prepare for it...

I mean you can already do pretty wild things - but they mainly happen in your mind / phantasy: you can supress factions or embrace factions: that means you can not only change your government authority to let's say imperial mid-game (or to corporate or almost whatever you like), you can also try to change the whole ethics of your society! - You can lead liberation wars with your federation until the whole galaxy follows the same ethics, and then you decide to drop out of the federation change your ethics / maybe have your empire fracture in civil war and do it all over again... - if you had the time to do it... - Maybe I'll have a try: I have a game sitting 20 years after the end (2520) where I killed every opposing empire and united all remaining empires within my federation (I also have a few subjecvts) and the endgame crisis is already dealt with, and my coffers are full to the brim, and I currently only use it every now and then to try to get the Megastructure related Steam-Achievements... - but I could try the exact thing that I just described. - Hell I could even take that 120k Federation fleet private by retrofitting it to one of my own designs, before I leave the federation... - I would probably need to prepare: set-up Hall of Judgements and Fortresses on all my planets and Planetary shields, Nervestaple most of my 6000 pops etc. to prepare for the insane all fronts war / civil war to come from it... - sounds like an interesting thing to do... - But would I get extra story-events with it? Nope. - So there is no good reason to do it, other than to see if it can be done. - It's like destroying a machine that I perfected for over a week in my freetime / RL. - The galaxy is already saved and made a happier and more prosperous and free-er place. I would only make it "worse".

 

[KingAlamar]

I actually thought about soldiers a little bit already. I'm of two different mind-sets:

1. Ascended beings wouldn't stoop so low as being soldiers
2. If they were soldiers they would be physically tough and powerful. Their weakness would be "morale" if anything.

I'm more concerned about gameplay after you lose a planet. My thoughts are that meat bags couldn't make an ascended being do anything but I'm not aware of a mechanism to automatically transfer population elsewhere when they lose a planet.

 

[fuinril]

I'd say the biggest issue is not the ascension paths, but the fact so many perks are just NOTHING.
As in, they do nothing you can't acquire elsewhere anyway.

I mean, you got Transcendent Learning, Grasp the Void and Eternal Vigilance that give passive buffs that nobody even care about.
Executive Vigor? not really that helpful honestly. and again-passive numbers.
Interstellar Dominion-ifs useful if you need to make lots of claims, but its boring as hell.
One vision-was this ever relevant at any point?
Shared Destiny-who cares?
Technological Ascendancy-just raw numbers.
Imperial Prerogative-rather useful, but boring. and you do the exact same thing with a repeatable tech.
Galactic Force Projection-more of the same, nothing. techs do it, jobs do it, stations do it. utter waste of a perk.
Synthetic age-if there was something valuable to DO with all them point, but there isn't.
Master builders-you take it for efficiency, but its not actually adding anything.
Defender of the Galaxy-bla. (also should totally be remained guardian of the galaxy)
Galactic Contender-another bla.
Mastery of Nature-now kina pointless, just settle more worlds as the "size penalty" isn't by planets as much as by districts anyway.
Universal Transactions-basically mandatory for a megacorp
Enigmatic Engineering-cool as feth, but doesn't do anything valuable.
World Shaper-who needs terraforming in 2.2?
Machine worlds-like world shaper, but even more pointless


And then you got stuff like Galactic Wonders that you have to question why would you even NOT take them with how much stuff they unlock.

Nihilistic Acquisition is probably the BIGGEST sinner here, as its both so good that it elevates the entire rush strategy to being the unrivaled best practically on its own, and because it completely invalidates barbaric despoilers. its cool, its meaningful-but it breaks the game.


It basically leads to me (and people in general) always taking the same perks. there is no choice really, most just doesn't matter.
All the giant list of "meh" perks need rework.
Some can be combined to make a single intresting perk (like Tech Ascend and Enigmatic Engi. the two mixed into one could make a fancy single perk)
Some needs to be re-imagined.

I totally agree with you.

Not necessarily about the perks details, as in fact a lot of the ones you discarded easily are very powerful depending on the way you play. Like defender of the galaxy being useless when playing tall with a x2-4 crisis strength (in fact I disagree with the majority of your statements).

BUT I do agree with some being awfully overpowered, and the others lead players to play in the way they like instead of playing in the way they should regarding the ethics they choosed.

In my opinion all the tradition tree needs a serious rework. Most of the bonuses you unlock through unity do nothing, the others only give minor bonuses... and you end farming unity for the sake of the 3-4 perks you're used to that are relevant.

 

[Flame13223]

Mastery of Nature-now kina pointless, just settle more worlds as the "size penalty" isn't by planets as much as by districts anyway.

I actually really like it still as you can add 2 city districts thus increasing the amount of forges or science buildings you can cram on a single planet without needing to build housing buildings.

Executive Vigor

Very good perk imho as it applies not only to base edicts but campaigns and unity ambitions...


In any case, yes the benefits are very static buffs and not very flavorful...

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

Chosen One should definitely be it's own trait... maybe rework Transcendent Learning so it makes your Ruler Immortal and increases other rulers life spans, but requires one of the Ascension Paths. Synthetics could re-upload the memories of the ruler into new shells, Bio-ascension could find a method to remove a brain and implant it into a new body seamlessly, and obviously the Shroud would make any Psionic Chosen One immortal.

Mastery of Nature and World Shaper should be combined. World-Shaper as it is now is only useful to Spiritualist Empires with Consecrated Worlds, it's too expensive and takes too much time to terraform into a Gaia world and even then the 100% habitability doesn't actually mean much to someone who can micro their empire well and/or has a lot of Charismatic pops.

Philosopher King would be another obvious interaction, you also want a way to deal with negative leader traits - not a nice exp with a game going well and suddenly your venerable dictator/emperor gets the arrested development trait. Using techs like capacity booster or neural tissue engineering to deal with that and other ones like substance abuser or stubborn would help with RNG.

I like the idea of combining Mastery of Nature and World Shaper it's a good idea for the perks to grow, giving you new benefits as you advance.


And one thing that can't be stated enough: special interactions and new anomilies for ascended empires.

 

[KingAlamar]

I like the idea of combining Mastery of Nature and World Shaper it's a good idea for the perks to grow, giving you new benefits as you advance.


And one thing that can't be stated enough: special interactions and new anomilies for ascended empires.

Hmm ... pre-defined perk synergies [You take perk x and perk y and the result == X + Y + Bonus effect] Interesting for complimentary perks.

Any examples of new anomalies for ascended empires? I was certainly thinking specific diplomatic events more than anomalies.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

Any examples of new anomalies for ascended empires? I was certainly thinking specific diplomatic events more than anomalies.

There are a lot of open-ended anomalies like the swirling shadows or the mountain range that turns out to be a ...
It would make sense that if you can perceive whole other lvls of reality (psi-ascension), warp flesh in up till now unimaginable ways (bio) or interact with machines up to the point that you become one with them (synth) to revisit some anomalies, discover some new ones revisit some of the (spaceborne) aliens figure out more from any precursor artifacts in your possesion etc.

Lots of potential for mid to endgame exploration/more galactic wonder mileage.

 

[KingAlamar]

There are a lot of open-ended anomalies like the swirling shadows or the mountain range that turns out to be a ...
It would make sense that if you can perceive whole other lvls of reality (psi-ascension), warp flesh in up till now unimaginable ways (bio) or interact with machines up to the point that you become one with them (synth) to revisit some anomalies, discover some new ones revisit some of the (spaceborne) aliens figure out more from any precursor artifacts in your possesion etc.

Lots of potential for mid to endgame exploration/more galactic wonder mileage.

If we can inject more exploration / wonder / awe into the MID & Late game I'm all for it.

 

[Flame13223]

I like the idea of combining Mastery of Nature and World Shaper it's a good idea for the perks to grow, giving you new benefits as you advance.

Yeah those seem like they should go hand in hand...I also wonder if you could create, like a proper terraforming ascencion. Where instead of changing your species you change your environment...reminds me of Civ Beyond Earth's Purity path a little.

 

[Ikael]

If we talk about ascension paths (bio, synth and psi), I think that they are quite fleshed out already, but the more flavour and dettail the merrier.

As for alternative ascension paths, some ideas:

- Post scarcity economics. A level above and beyond utopian abundance for egalitarian empires that would have the potential to render the entire game economy obsolete
- Eternal peace. A diplomatic victory for when the much fabled diplomatic rework arrives (almost impossible to recreate now)
- Forerunners. A mix between world shapers and 2001. Seed the universe with carefully curated life, gift sentience to entire planets and become as Gods
- Titanic builders. An ascension path for megastructure builders which could culminate with a Matrioska brain, a pocket universe or other insane-ass construct
- Inter-galactic travellers. The ultimate exploration project, start an expedition to the nearby Andromeda galaxy

There are lots of possibilities for ascension paths and endgame content. But I think that the focus should be in improving the different existing ascension perks and making them more unique, going beyond mere flat bonuses. Exclusive unity-based edicts for One Vision, unique leader traits for Trascendent Learning, special technologies for Technological Ascendacy, new trade policies for Universal Transactions, etc.