I mean, the Synth event already crashes your economy if you are not prepared to handle it.
The ascencions have grown a bit stale
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The first thing that comes to mind when thinking about adding more layers to the APs would have to be another step to the bio ascendant in the form of biological technology, including ships.
We've all seen it in SciFi and I think it would fit there.
I don't know how to balance this but using food for ship upkeep might be one way.
As far as the other two ascendant I can't think of more. Zro for the spiritual path is being wasted right now, there should be other uses for this.
When I think of the synthetic path the first thing that comes to mind are the vorlons from Babylon 5. Essentially transfered their consciousness to robotic shells but they don't make you think of them as robots.
I think the people arguing for gameplay mechanics changes rather than # bonuses are on the right path. If you look at games like Endless space 2, the differences between the empires are the fundamental gameplay differences between them, not the numbers so much.
We've all seen it in SciFi and I think it would fit there.
I don't know how to balance this but using food for ship upkeep might be one way.
As far as the other two ascendant I can't think of more. Zro for the spiritual path is being wasted right now, there should be other uses for this.
When I think of the synthetic path the first thing that comes to mind are the vorlons from Babylon 5. Essentially transfered their consciousness to robotic shells but they don't make you think of them as robots.
I think the people arguing for gameplay mechanics changes rather than # bonuses are on the right path. If you look at games like Endless space 2, the differences between the empires are the fundamental gameplay differences between them, not the numbers so much.
So here's two paths I thought of for Robotic empires.
1) Robomodding path
This one starts with the Synthethic Age perk with the 2 robo mod points and 33% less modification time, and the 2nd perk is Advance Specialization which is similar to the gene path on normal empires in that it unlocks several new traits and its designed more for those who like to micro-manage a bit.
Trait nr1 (cannot be used with Power drills, Efficient processors, Superconductive) - Cost 4 - Minerals, Energy and food from jobs increased by 25%
*Food is for rogue servitors
Trait nr2 (cannot be used with Efficient processors) - Cost 3 - Alloys&Consumer goods form jobs increased by 15%
*Consumer goods is for rogue servitors
Trait nr3 - Cost 3 - Naval capacity and deviancy reduction from jobs is increased by 30%
Trait nr4 - Cost 4 - Monthly pop assembly from jobs is increased by 15%
In addition, leaders will all get specific bonuses such as 10% fire rate, 5% research speed, etc...
2) Independence path
Perk 1 is Autonomous Adaptation and in fluff terms what it does is create several lesser hiveminds that all answer to the overmind. In practice all your pops gain the localized trait which gives them 5% job resource production and all your leaders gain an immediate trait as well.
- Ruler - Deviancy increased by 10% and pop upkeep reduced by 5% across empire
- Governor - Planet build speed 10%, clear blocker time -10%
- Admiral - 5% evasion and 10% sublight speed
- Scientist - 5% research rate, 10% survey speed and 25% anomaly research speed
- General - 10% upkeep reduction
Perk 2 is Independent thought and basically this will give you access to a project much like how synth ascension has a project for you to complete.
Once the project here is completed, a reform government window comes up where you can select your authority and civics, and governing ethics as well. Your pops also gain a 10% job resource production and all the leaders gain new traits to replace the old ones:
- Ruler - 10% pop upkeep reduction
- Governor - Planet build speed 15%, Clear blocker time -15%
- Admiral - 10% evasion and 20% sublight speed
- Scientist - 10% research rate, 20% survey speed and 50% anomaly research speed
- General - 20% upkeep reduction
You also gain a whole set of new buildings and you will get approval activated for your pops and political factions will spawn over time.
Based on some of the comments in this thread I've been toying with the idea of modding Stellaris to "Make Ascension Great Again" [Humor intended / political fireworks not intended]. However I'm running into some questions about what would be the best way to handle certain things and would like feedback.
Note: I have some thoughts about all of the above and think I know enough scripting / modding to pull off at least some of the above.
- Psionic: I want to create an optional ascension to "energy beings / creatures of light".
- I would assume the only "jobs" that ascended beings would fill would be RULER-STRATA [Special Strata?] jobs && Leaders... right?
- How do you deal with the shockwave from a bunch of folks ascending?? What jobs to give them? Where?
- What to do about the unemployment because of the above for the flood of rulers with not enough jobs to fill??
- What happens to the economy? Stability? Crime??
- What about those [not of your species] that are left behind?
- What about building, district, ship, starbase, etc. upkeep??
- What about your fleets? Outposts? Starbases? Planetary buildings & districts?
Note: I have some thoughts about all of the above and think I know enough scripting / modding to pull off at least some of the above.
Ascension where your race turns pure energy, everything costs only energy. All buildings/districts are made of energy. Your pops eat energy, your ships are pure energy, cost energy, upkeep is energy only. You make only energy producing distrcits, no need for any other district. You convert all special resources to energy using buildings. And you get pretty nifty bonus to energy weapons 
Ascension where your race turns pure energy, everything costs only energy. All buildings/districts are made of energy. Your pops eat energy, your ships are pure energy, cost energy, upkeep is energy only. You make only energy producing distrcits, no need for any other district. You convert all special resources to energy using buildings. And you get pretty nifty bonus to energy weapons
Oddly enough I was thinking somewhat along those lines. However not everything is quite that simple:
- If you only ascend your main species you need to leave some farm districts around to feed those non-ascended members ... that or buy a LOT of food
- If you're running slaves then those slaves may not be able to generate what they need because the majority of consumer goods & amenities are generated by specialists. I guess some Domestic Servitude would work for amenities. Relying solely on the market for consumer goods seems like a bad policy but maybe that's just one downside of this type of ascension???
- If you're not running slaves then what happens when a ton of left-over workers [non-ascended] all promote to specialist jobs vacated by specialists that have ascended. Granted with enough micro on the player's part they could manage but that seems terribly burdensome.
- If you ascend everyone, assuming the ascended wouldn't work menial jobs??, then who would be around to generate the energy you may otherwise need??
Ideas? Suggestions? I'm open
Ideally speaking you would want to ease the players into the whole transition in the first part of the perk or when you pick the perk but did not yet perform the special project. Things like giving access to some of the special buildings early or ascending your leaders first could help out in that regards. I would assume you wouldn't be doing much trade that way either which could become a bigger issue, altough personally I'd just give access to a new trade policy where 100% of the trade is instead in unity or science.Oddly enough I was thinking somewhat along those lines. However not everything is quite that simple:
- If you only ascend your main species you need to leave some farm districts around to feed those non-ascended members ... that or buy a LOT of food
- If you're running slaves then those slaves may not be able to generate what they need because the majority of consumer goods & amenities are generated by specialists. I guess some Domestic Servitude would work for amenities. Relying solely on the market for consumer goods seems like a bad policy but maybe that's just one downside of this type of ascension???
- If you're not running slaves then what happens when a ton of left-over workers [non-ascended] all promote to specialist jobs vacated by specialists that have ascended. Granted with enough micro on the player's part they could manage but that seems terribly burdensome.
- If you ascend everyone, assuming the ascended wouldn't work menial jobs??, then who would be around to generate the energy you may otherwise need??
Ideas? Suggestions? I'm open
PS -
With regards to other pops I would assume there's 3 options
1 - Consume them to produce energy for you
2 - Transition them too over time
3 - Keep them around as workers or slaves.
TL/DR: Feel free to rip this post to shreds ... esp. if you can recommend better ideas. The goal is I'd like to allow for high degrees of player control so I want the player to have as many options as is reasonable ...
Here are my thoughts so far:
In terms of pros & cons:
Trigger event: Outcome of a new Shroud Event + Researching an associated tech + Special Project. Event requires "Ascension Theory" tech to trigger. This event is roughly modeled after some existing Shroud Events. Thought about adding new techs you could just research or new perks but figured "Shroud Event" would be more fitting???
Here are my thoughts so far:
- Ascended beings would only take Leader & "Ascension Strata" jobs.
- I would need to modify building(s) in order to accommodate the main species uplift.
- I would probably need to have more than one "special project". One for all species with the Psionic trait [full version] and another for "everyone else".
- The project for "Psionics only" would involve updating buildings at the end of the project. The game would auto-pause on project completion.
- The project to ascend "Everyone" would be cleaner in some sense. Think custom buildings & districts everywhere. A PAIN to mod I understand but doable with enough time & skill.
- The modified building(s) and district(s) above would create an equal number of jobs in the "Ascension Strata" as they have regular jobs. This makes sure there are enough jobs for everyone in the Ascension Strata.
- The "auto pause" at project completion allows the user to dive into the serious micro required to disable jobs they don't want [both Ascension and standard strata]. Ridiculous micro however this is all I can think of to keep from crashing things entirely. Mostly this is required for the uplift-psi only project as the other project should result in one strata for everyone and cleaner resource production.
- If I can somehow automate selective disabling of jobs so that only those jobs once filled by ascended beings are disabled then that may be an option.
- Stability & Crime: Enforcer jobs would get their Ascended counter parts so these jobs could be filled. I expect buffs to stability might be called for.
- Would like to replace Ship models, Starbase models, outpost models, etc. with copies of the "Unbidden" models where possible. I'd even like to create custom type(s) of ships if possible. The idea is the ships couldn't have "armor" [like the Unbidden] however they should otherwise be able to mount "energy weapons only".
- Would replace existing buildings but would use the same models / icons [I'm not an artist and don't really want to even try that hard]
- Would see if I can replace the species portrait with ingame or a very basic external asset .... not sure??
In terms of pros & cons:
- Ascended Leaders are effectively given "Chosen One" status. Immortal and gain significant buffs over their basic PSI counterpart.
- Ascended beings take up no housing.
- Ascended beings don't require food or consumer goods for upkeep. Instead they require 1 energy and +50% more amenities.
- Ships are Shields + Hull [only] IF I can mod them the way I like. Ships also ONLY support energy weapons. Ships are not made of minerals & alloys though but are energy. As such they are more maneuverable giving evasion & speed bonuses across the board.
- Empire gains effects similar to Enigmatic Engineering perk [Assuming I can figure out how to do that]
- Changes the weight of the Unbidden showing up ... Maybe
- Has chance of triggering "end of cycle" if ascension fails .... Maybe [Cool on paper ... may not be "fun" for player]
Trigger event: Outcome of a new Shroud Event + Researching an associated tech + Special Project. Event requires "Ascension Theory" tech to trigger. This event is roughly modeled after some existing Shroud Events. Thought about adding new techs you could just research or new perks but figured "Shroud Event" would be more fitting???
I would like to get the option to adapt my robots or synthetics with nanites or/and living metal. I'm not sure about the bonuses, but I would expect for the living metal to be Necron like. The nanite ones should be like the Grey Tempest. For bio ascension you should be allowed to build biological ships.
For social ascension could be the realisation of political and social utopia like true communism.
For social ascension could be the realisation of political and social utopia like true communism.
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I wonder... I guess we agree that ascension should change quite a lot of things and not just be or feel like one other ascension perk. I just wonder how much change is too much. Personally, I am not entirely happy with Synth ascension and the sudden shift from food to energy, takes quite some time and resources to readjust your economy, at least it did in my recent playthrough.
So I guess, maybe we should talk a bit how the ascensions should differ also gameplay wise. Like, should one path be good for tall and another for wide builds? For conquest or diplomacy? Or maybe we should postpone until diplomacy, economy and espionage get deeper so that these might become something were certain ascension paths might shine.
So I guess, maybe we should talk a bit how the ascensions should differ also gameplay wise. Like, should one path be good for tall and another for wide builds? For conquest or diplomacy? Or maybe we should postpone until diplomacy, economy and espionage get deeper so that these might become something were certain ascension paths might shine.
Personally, I think that traditions should be made to be a bit more similar to how Ideas work in EU4, in that there are more of them than you can actually take, and the choices for which ones you do take can alter gameplay and the mechanics available to your empire. The Ascension Perks could then be made dependent on have certain traditions or combinations of traditions, so that they'd flow more naturally. That could also leave open possibilities for different flavor even if you have the same perks. For example, if you took the psionic ascension with more materialist oriented traditions, you would unlock different flavor events and options than if you took a spiritualist path to arrive at that ascension.
You probably should prepare and do most of that before the project even finishes. If you have a large stockpile of food you can essentially do the transition before you even have to, hell, you can just buy food off the market if need be too as you'd gain a huge amount more energy credits if you readjust the economy. I know its not ideal and I am torn on this because on one hand its not newbie-friendly and its quite obtuse as there's no warnings before you do it, so you have to learn from experience but on the other hand planning ahead is something I want more of in Stellaris.
Well, instead of having the entire species turn from food-eating Bios to energy-consuming Synth from one day to the other, maybe it could be done more gradually.
Come to think of it, one could make a nice questline out of it, the first people get turned, problems come up, how will you handle them? Also, you could start picking up traits during the process and the rate at which people get converted could accelerate as experience is accumulated and infrastructure is established.
So, new suggestion: questlines for all expansion paths.
Oh, and maybe gradual conversion instead of plopping.
Come to think of it, one could make a nice questline out of it, the first people get turned, problems come up, how will you handle them? Also, you could start picking up traits during the process and the rate at which people get converted could accelerate as experience is accumulated and infrastructure is established.
So, new suggestion: questlines for all expansion paths.
Oh, and maybe gradual conversion instead of plopping.
I'd say the biggest issue is not the ascension paths, but the fact so many perks are just NOTHING.
As in, they do nothing you can't acquire elsewhere anyway.
I mean, you got Transcendent Learning, Grasp the Void and Eternal Vigilance that give passive buffs that nobody even care about.
Executive Vigor? not really that helpful honestly. and again-passive numbers.
Interstellar Dominion-ifs useful if you need to make lots of claims, but its boring as hell.
One vision-was this ever relevant at any point?
Shared Destiny-who cares?
Technological Ascendancy-just raw numbers.
Imperial Prerogative-rather useful, but boring. and you do the exact same thing with a repeatable tech.
Galactic Force Projection-more of the same, nothing. techs do it, jobs do it, stations do it. utter waste of a perk.
Synthetic age-if there was something valuable to DO with all them point, but there isn't.
Master builders-you take it for efficiency, but its not actually adding anything.
Defender of the Galaxy-bla. (also should totally be remained guardian of the galaxy)
Galactic Contender-another bla.
Mastery of Nature-now kina pointless, just settle more worlds as the "size penalty" isn't by planets as much as by districts anyway.
Universal Transactions-basically mandatory for a megacorp
Enigmatic Engineering-cool as feth, but doesn't do anything valuable.
World Shaper-who needs terraforming in 2.2?
Machine worlds-like world shaper, but even more pointless
And then you got stuff like Galactic Wonders that you have to question why would you even NOT take them with how much stuff they unlock.
Nihilistic Acquisition is probably the BIGGEST sinner here, as its both so good that it elevates the entire rush strategy to being the unrivaled best practically on its own, and because it completely invalidates barbaric despoilers. its cool, its meaningful-but it breaks the game.
It basically leads to me (and people in general) always taking the same perks. there is no choice really, most just doesn't matter.
All the giant list of "meh" perks need rework.
Some can be combined to make a single intresting perk (like Tech Ascend and Enigmatic Engi. the two mixed into one could make a fancy single perk)
Some needs to be re-imagined.
As in, they do nothing you can't acquire elsewhere anyway.
I mean, you got Transcendent Learning, Grasp the Void and Eternal Vigilance that give passive buffs that nobody even care about.
Executive Vigor? not really that helpful honestly. and again-passive numbers.
Interstellar Dominion-ifs useful if you need to make lots of claims, but its boring as hell.
One vision-was this ever relevant at any point?
Shared Destiny-who cares?
Technological Ascendancy-just raw numbers.
Imperial Prerogative-rather useful, but boring. and you do the exact same thing with a repeatable tech.
Galactic Force Projection-more of the same, nothing. techs do it, jobs do it, stations do it. utter waste of a perk.
Synthetic age-if there was something valuable to DO with all them point, but there isn't.
Master builders-you take it for efficiency, but its not actually adding anything.
Defender of the Galaxy-bla. (also should totally be remained guardian of the galaxy)
Galactic Contender-another bla.
Mastery of Nature-now kina pointless, just settle more worlds as the "size penalty" isn't by planets as much as by districts anyway.
Universal Transactions-basically mandatory for a megacorp
Enigmatic Engineering-cool as feth, but doesn't do anything valuable.
World Shaper-who needs terraforming in 2.2?
Machine worlds-like world shaper, but even more pointless
And then you got stuff like Galactic Wonders that you have to question why would you even NOT take them with how much stuff they unlock.
Nihilistic Acquisition is probably the BIGGEST sinner here, as its both so good that it elevates the entire rush strategy to being the unrivaled best practically on its own, and because it completely invalidates barbaric despoilers. its cool, its meaningful-but it breaks the game.
It basically leads to me (and people in general) always taking the same perks. there is no choice really, most just doesn't matter.
All the giant list of "meh" perks need rework.
Some can be combined to make a single intresting perk (like Tech Ascend and Enigmatic Engi. the two mixed into one could make a fancy single perk)
Some needs to be re-imagined.
Nonono. The Vorlons are the next step on the Psi-ladder. They are energy beings, having shed their bodies. A bit like The Ancients in the Stargate-series, only less ephemeral and more "grounded". They are telepaths and to some degree telechinetics (I hope I am not spoiling the series for you).
Their ships are however the next step on the Bio-ladder, living ships, which could be built and/or maintained with food.
The Synth-version would be the becoming one with the interwebz-thing, remote-controlling ships and whatnot.
Except for Mastery of Nature I totally agree. I do find that particular one useful the few times that you find a planet with loads of districts but small size.
(Is it just me thinking that there should be at least SOME correlation between number of districts and size, by the way?)
Nanites & living metal are cool ideas. Not sure what they provide game-play wise but incorporating those would make sense as a next step.
Bio-ships are interesting for sure. I understand there are challenges to implementation however there are at least in-game assets that can be used.
In terms of utopias I could imagine that would be possible with Hive / Gestault as the "individual" doesn't necessarily gum up the works any more
I personally think we need to shrink our Ascension pool. Even before considering the two points it takes to finish any kind of population-based ascension bar Synthetic Age our choices for Ascensions are growing larger and larger while our pool of choices remains the same 8 that it was since Utopia came out. That being said...
- Some method for Normal Empires to become part of a Gestalt Consciousness would be pretty cool. Frame it differently than a Hive-mind though, it'd be more realistic that people would accept some kind of Psionic or Mechanical link that allows communication across the stars WITHOUT sacrificing individuality.
- Chosen One should definitely be it's own trait... maybe rework Transcendent Learning so it makes your Ruler Immortal and increases other rulers life spans, but requires one of the Ascension Paths. Synthetics could re-upload the memories of the ruler into new shells, Bio-ascension could find a method to remove a brain and implant it into a new body seamlessly, and obviously the Shroud would make any Psionic Chosen One immortal.
- Mastery of Nature and World Shaper should be combined. World-Shaper as it is now is only useful to Spiritualist Empires with Consecrated Worlds, it's too expensive and takes too much time to terraform into a Gaia world and even then the 100% habitability doesn't actually mean much to someone who can micro their empire well and/or has a lot of Charismatic pops.
Oooh, this gives me a whole set of ideas - and opportunities for differentiation.
"So, you have ascended into near-godhood. What's next?"
Firstly, there should be an option of WHOM to uplift. Only the leaders? All of your race? All peoples in your realm?
Secondly - to what degree? You have the Vorlon style-energy beings that use encounter-suits to manipulate the World around them, basically masquerading as normal fleshy beings while being ascended, in which case you continue fairly normally, but with undying Leaders, loss of diplomatic status from fearful neighbours and perhaps, as someone suggested, a near-Fallen Empire status.
Or you could go full godhood, as the ascended in Stargate, acting as the leaders, as you suggested, but…
Thirdly - ...what kind of leaders? Benevolent or barely interacting leaders? Again, Leaders as deathless but slow-to-grow leaders over their mortal Children, over whom they watch (and, perhaps, in time ascend as well, for whatever benefit or bane it could cause)?
Or... not so kind leaders. As the Ori, or the Goa'uld, who demand worship for Power, and treat their followers as slaves, keeping them ignorant. Perhaps with a middle class (much as the Priors of the Ori, or the Jaffa of the goa'uld, or as the servitor races of the Shadows) of intermediaries?
Not sure exactly how it could be played out in stat terms, but it sounds like delicious fun!
We're thinking along similar lines. At this point I'm thinking of spawning multiple projects to differentiate WHO.
Good points. I'm thinking something like Vorlons without the encounter suit seeing as everyone knew you when you were "meat bags". Unsure of the political reaction to this --- lots of things to think about for sure. I love the flavor of even the Fallen Empires being in shock but concerned that if I push things to their logical conclusion that things may not be as fun as I'd like.
I'd like to leave a lot of that to internalized roleplay. After all the ascended may be 'gods' but that's with a little "g" .... the big G, in game terms, is sitting behind the keyboard
Your leadership question gave me some ideas. Originally the leaders were going to be giving benign direction. Maybe to allow for the "worship us or die" maybe we look to see if anything could be done with CBs?? I'm not even sure it's possible but allowing for the possibility for someone to play it that way would be a nice [stretch?] goal.
As for classes / strata / etc. I was initially thinking of a flat class structure ... I.E. they are all ascended. Given that I'm already thinking of creating new jobs, new strata, etc. having a couple of other new strata is always an option.
Personally I'd prefer to go flat with the structure but I can see where that's not necessarily the only way to go.
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