The ascencions have grown a bit stale

[Flame13223]

Well if you REALLY want to re-engineer APs then I think we'd want to throw out the entire AP system and start from scratch. Most APs are in the end just simple buffs to your empire. Heck even most species ascension can be boiled down into Leader, Worker, Specialist buffs. There's not much that really alters gameplay in any meaningful [other than role play] fashion.

Now if you really want to talk shop then I agree with you on one point -- APs should be empire defining and completely change the dynamics of the game when you take them. APs should allow you to break rules, replace old systems with new ones, etc.

Well ascencions in general to me mean they provide a species wide buff or rework the system that you currently have in a pretty drastic way. For example synths mean you no longer need food at all. Or Transcendence gives you a repeatable bonus with brand new components for your ships available quite possibly. Or gene modding allows you to remove positive traits and gives you access to brand new traits.

All of them provide fairly significant changes to your species at least, sure they're not the most sweeping thing of all but they are significant.

So I would expect the new ascencions to be the same, for example the pacifist one I'd imagine the rank1 requires that you have robotics technology and allows robots to become soldiers but your pops can no longer be soldiers, and I'd give you flat bonuses to some stuff, but on rank2 you'd gain access to the more sweeping changes, a special project to develop non-lethal weaponry allowing you to capture pops when fighting fleets, a brand new chemical bliss sort of state that you can use on pops to change their ethos to pacifist at an increased rate, and you should gain a pacification war goal option that you can only use against empires that have been the aggressor in a war in the past X years or are currently in a war, basically anyone who displays aggression you can "attack" them but you don't kill them, you just drug them all up and they become part of your pacifist utopia, kind of like a total war but only for pacifists with set requirements.

but maybe you don't like that idea, in which case I have one for slavers and one for millitarists, I am not sure if you like those more or not. It doesn't really matter, the point is that it should have some sweeping changes on the 2nd rank not the first.

 

[Acheron]

I wonder, ascensions are a two step process, one ascension perk then the other. What about having different options for the second ascension perk, so you have different kinds of bio/psi/synth ascension?

Some ideas:
Psi ascension:
- Hive-subconscious, not a full hivemind, but the people of your empire get subconsciously linked, greatly improving social cohesion and reducing crime and need for amenities and housing.
- Psis & Drones, you can built Synths which are designed to be particularly susceptible to psi powers, meaning your telepathic citizens can easily dominate them and keep them in their places.
- Chosen one, instead of having the Shroud chosen one become the god-emperor via event choice, do it via an ascension path with appropriate perks to go with it.
Synth ascension:
- Super-Cyborgs, instead of going for full mental tranfser to synthetic bodies, just stay with the cyborg route, but more so. Maybe change species alterations such that you can give every biological species mechanical traits, too.
- Virtual people, your citizens become fully digital beings hopping from robot body to robot body as required. Using specialized robots for each tasks gives not as strong a bonus as a POP build or engineered to a dedicated task, but it gives a boon to everything.
- Ultimate Direct Democracy, due to neural implants, almost all decisions are taken collectively but subconsciously by all the people of your nation.
Bio ascension:
- Genetic castes, define a handful of POPs with traits for different roles in your empire, new POPs will be generated depending on what is currently required.
- Ultimate Form define one particularly good species and turn your entire population into these new super-people.
- Xena-Compatibility, make this a second stage of bio-ascension and possibly buff it, as superior offspring POPs slowly but surely also replace existing POPs.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

I wonder, ascensions are a two step process, one ascension perk then the other. What about having different options for the second ascension perk, so you have different kinds of bio/psi/synth ascension?

Some ideas:
Synth ascension:
- Virtual people, your citizens become fully digital beings hopping from robot body to robot body as required. Using specialized robots for each tasks gives not as strong a bonus as a POP build or engineered to a dedicated task, but it gives a boon to everything.
- Ultimate Direct Democracy, due to neural implants, almost all decisions are taken collectively but subconsciously by all the people of your nation.
Bio ascension:
- Genetic castes, define a handful of POPs with traits for different roles in your empire, new POPs will be generated depending on what is currently required.
- Ultimate Form define one particularly good species and turn your entire population into these new super-people.

-Virtual people is what synth ascension is already in my imagination.
-Ultimate Direct Democracy is the discription of one tech I think but maybe the changed that?

-Genetic castes - if the AI would assign pops based on traits like proles and give us more of them to work with that could work.
-Ultimate Form - that sounds do me just like what regular gene tailoring in egalitarian societies tries to do

I really liked your other ideas as they were.


I think the whole only one ascension path should be loosend up. As there is no reason for people tailoring with their genes not to eventually discover psionics especially if they are spiritualists and there are other such pops around. Same thing with cyborgs. That Synths can't get psi-powers isn't a necessity either.


As for other ascension ideas - one thing that they don't do is pops like the gas-people and life electric. And with the L-cluster we also got an idea for further options for the Synth path - nanites.

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

As others said, ascension has to be something that fundamentally changes your empire. I wouldn't want generic bonus to some playstyle only, but some NEW playstyle or something that drastically changes a playstyle or key factor. The current paths are ok in this regard: they all have a fundamental effect on your pops and makes your empire effectively "unique" enough. "Flat bonus to something" isn't interesting, that's what technology does and some Ascension Perks do too.

I find difficult, however, to "invent" Paths for every ethics.

The Slaver Ascension may be interesting, if the final result is you becoming a Fallen Empire, where your main specie is forced into a "special working class" with Utopian Abundance, and you either get "automatic buildings" like actual FEs and/or enormous bonus for slaves. This would be however difficoult to implement: how can the game account for the actual number of slaves and masters, building types, and such, and be able to convert buildings in order to not crash or megaboost your economy? This sounds like a nightmare to implement.

Pacifist and military ascendancy are quite the same: they have a dedicated Tradition each, and how can you flavor an entire empire around that concept? Militarist can become "simil-Marauders", but how would you implement it? I can think of no option whatsoever. Pacifists are even worse.


Cool archetypes are hard to implement starting from an end-game well developed "normal" empire. It would be cool to be able to play as a simil-Marauder, maybe with some big project to build mega-Arks that become essentially "moving planets"; your planets become uncolonized and a Space Ark appears in orbit. The Ark works just like a planet and a Starbase combined. Cool, but hard to implement.

 

[KingAlamar]

I find difficult, however, to "invent" Paths for every ethics.

<snip>

Cool archetypes are hard to implement starting from an end-game well developed "normal" empire.

Part of a Path-for-ethics approach may run into player acceptance problems because not every player views ethics the same way. For example I don't view Authoritarians as slavers per-se ... I view Authoritarians as being all about "Command & Control". Slavery is just a control mechanic for their pops. As such, to me, it makes sense that updates to Edicts / Decisions / etc. would be more in keeping for this faction -- possibly including new "slavery-targeted" edicts & decisions. To me Egalitarians are all about a LACK of centralized control -- I.E. they're all in on FREEDOM & the individual. I find that harder to translate outside of a "basic buff".



What I've found is easier may be to engineer ascension paths for each TRADITION TREE instead of each ethic. Off-the-cuff tradition examples could be:

• Expansion: Alteration to Empire Sprawl mechanics. Either nullify Empire Sprawl alltogether OR at least remove / alter the colony & district contribution to sprawl
• Supremacy: Alteration to Fleet Capacity & upkeep mechanics. Reduce to 0 fleet upkeep costs for ships up to that empire's fleet capacity. Being over-capacity does generate the exact same cost penalties as if they were paying standard upkeep costs.
• Diplomacy: Alteration to agreement cost & upkeep mechanics. Diplomatic agreements GAIN the empire influence [0.1?] instead of losing influence. Partners in these agreements do not pay any influence. Thus the acceptance penalty for "too many agreements" by the other side is nullified meaning you can have MANY more agreements than normal.
• Domination: Alteration to happiness mechanics. Ignore penalties due to population "unhappiness".
• Harmony: Alteration to Faction mechanics. Treat every pop as if they were associated with your "leading" faction. Mostly granting huge effective bonuses to happiness, stability, etc. because it's usually pretty easy to keep one faction happy.
• Discovery: Alteration to Tech card system. Ignore the tech card system. Allow empire to pick item(s) to research.
• Prosperity: Alteration to upkeep mechanics. Ignore all building & district upkeep costs. Also ignore the "1 food" [organic] and the "1 energy" [robot] upkeep costs.

I would think limiting the type of "tradition ascensions" you could take would be a good move because if you could take all of them I don't see why you wouldn't -- or at least take those that don't overlap as much. Perhaps you only get 1 and you can freely choose any?? Perhaps you get 1 but you have to choose based on ethics [Fan Mil + Materialist maybe can only choose Supremacy OR Discovery but not other options]. Edit: With tamed-down versions maybe you could get 2 -- perhaps tied to ethics choice?

NOTE: The above options are not intended to be "balanced". The intent is just to show the sorts of effects that could be done with very little thought. I would assume much more clever ideas exist for those that ponder it a while

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

I think it's a rather bad policy adding new stuff without working on what's already there and as I ended up writing in another thread

Yeah the first psionics would probably be treated as angels by some but also like X-Man Mutants by others.

One thing to improve the ascension paths would be to make them evolve in more steps and have decision to flesh them out than the literally couple of clicks it takes now. Right now if you unlocked 4 Slots you can make all your pops latent psionics and on the same day unlock their whole psi-potential and issue the shroud project. Things like establishing a psi-corps, dealing with the first criminal mutants, leaders (who can now have a corrupt trait) abusing such powers, new possible interactions with space-borne aliens and anomalies...

Same thing with the bio and synth paths you'd assume that encountering things like living metal, nanites, species on heavy/light gravity worlds, space-borne aliens, enigmatic tube, speed demon anomaly etc. would mean more to them and allow them to gain new insights. Right now the ascensions are too much click reward instead of click more game (and reward but also problems & dangers to solve = more game)

One thing that sets aside the synth, psi and bio ascension is that it fundamentally changes and enhances your pops. I think that should be the final goal for any new such path - becoming an energy life form like the Unbidden for example.

Ethic enhancements are a good idea and all ascension perks could need some love but they don't change your pops in nearly as much of a fundamental way and as such are more of an what people do and how the live whereas the aformentioned ones are about what people are.

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

Part of a Path-for-ethics approach may run into player acceptance problems because not every player views ethics the same way. For example I don't view Authoritarians as slavers per-se ... I view Authoritarians as being all about "Command & Control". Slavery is just a control mechanic for their pops. As such, to me, it makes sense that updates to Edicts / Decisions / etc. would be more in keeping for this faction -- possibly including new "slavery-targeted" edicts & decisions. To me Egalitarians are all about a LACK of centralized control -- I.E. they're all in on FREEDOM & the individual. I find that harder to translate outside of a "basic buff".



What I've found is easier may be to engineer ascension paths for each TRADITION TREE instead of each ethic. Off-the-cuff tradition examples could be:

• Expansion: Alteration to Empire Sprawl mechanics. Either nullify Empire Sprawl alltogether OR at least remove / alter the colony & district contribution to sprawl
• Supremacy: Alteration to Fleet Capacity & upkeep mechanics. Reduce to 0 fleet upkeep costs for ships up to that empire's fleet capacity. Being over-capacity does generate the exact same cost penalties as if they were paying standard upkeep costs.
• Diplomacy: Alteration to agreement cost & upkeep mechanics. Diplomatic agreements GAIN the empire influence [0.1?] instead of losing influence. Partners in these agreements do not pay any influence. Thus the acceptance penalty for "too many agreements" by the other side is nullified meaning you can have MANY more agreements than normal.
• Domination: Alteration to happiness mechanics. Ignore penalties due to population "unhappiness".
• Harmony: Alteration to Faction mechanics. Treat every pop as if they were associated with your "leading" faction. Mostly granting huge effective bonuses to happiness, stability, etc. because it's usually pretty easy to keep one faction happy.
• Discovery: Alteration to Tech card system. Ignore the tech card system. Allow empire to pick item(s) to research.
• Prosperity: Alteration to upkeep mechanics. Ignore all building & district upkeep costs. Also ignore the "1 food" [organic] and the "1 energy" [robot] upkeep costs.

I would think limiting the type of "tradition ascensions" you could take would be a good move because if you could take all of them I don't see why you wouldn't -- or at least take those that don't overlap as much. Perhaps you only get 1 and you can freely choose any?? Perhaps you get 1 but you have to choose based on ethics [Fan Mil + Materialist maybe can only choose Supremacy OR Discovery but not other options]. Edit: With tamed-down versions maybe you could get 2 -- perhaps tied to ethics choice?

NOTE: The above options are not intended to be "balanced". The intent is just to show the sorts of effects that could be done with very little thought. I would assume much more clever ideas exist for those that ponder it a while

Yeah, i've taken a similar approach with my own Tradition mod, expanding single traditions to diversify them and giving each one its own Megastructure. But, to invent a two-step Ascension Path for each would be really an enormous task.

Your suggestions aren't bad, but aren't really "ascension paths", just bonus to already existing mechanics. Removing Empire Sprawl for Expansion (beside being horribly unbalanced, but i know we are just speculating) won't change their approach to the game: you will just suddenly remove their Sprawl malus. Same for Supremacy: you'll just make them build more ships, it's the same as adding 1000 capacity through building a ton of Anchorages. Diplomacy is just an Influence bonus. Etc etc.

All your suggestions boils down to flat bonus to something that already exists, nothing comparable to how "different" the actual three Paths work. You could put those suggestions as "end the tradition tree" bonus. THey are hardly Ascension Perks, let alone Ascension Paths in the Psionic/Synth/Bio sense. They don't make the empire really different, just more powerful at something it already had.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

There's a few I could imagine:
1 Decadency: Slaves can do (certain) specialist jobs depending on slavery type, can acquire buildings that grants special ruler jobs. Can use Decadent living standard, which grants high ruler happiness, special unemployed jobs (unlike utopian idealism, these jobs are not unemployment). Requires equality+xenophobia?

2. Energy beings: convert to energy beings, have no traits, flat increase to productivity. Requires no upkeep, builds everything from energy. Perhaps slower population growth. Immortal leaders.

3. God Emperor : The God Emperor always knows best. All ruler jobs filled by the God Emperor. Additional stability. Must sacrifice consumer goods or pops to the emperor to grant the emperor special psionic traits and abilities. Branch of psionic, requires authoritarianism and spiritualism.

4. Skypeople : main species gain habitat habitability, can use habitats more effectively. Habitats can move, gain flat resources depending on what planet type your habitat orbits (or special jobs) . Cannot use ecumenopolis but habitats districts could be ecumenopolis like. Can still colonise planets, but will need other pops to work them. Efficient pops, good specialists but difficult to gain raw resources, flat bonuses should get you through early game. Could be a civic.

5. Miniaturisation: can miniaturise pops, use far less food, housing, cg. Receive large nerfs to goods and material production, but no nerfs to research, trade, unity etc.

I think "Randian paradise" and "True Socialism" could also be interesting but I can't think of interesting gameplay.

 

[zukodark]

I mainly like ones that fundamentally change your pops and empire in some way, and I also don't think they have to be purely good.

New ascension paths/perks:

Energy Ascension: become unbidden-like beings of energy. No consumer goods or food, but relies on energy. I'm inclined to giving them no further pop growth, in return for the huge benefits of costing almost nothing, but that could be put in another perk instead. Requires some mid-late game energy tech and an expensive physics project to convert.

Synchronize the Minds: become a hive mind. Requires some mid game society tech and an expensive society project to convert.

As for ethics bases ascension perks (not paths), these are not made to be used in every game:

The Final Struggle (militarist): declare total war on every empire in the game, giving bonuses and halving the effects of resource shortages. However if certain conditions are met (losing large battles?) you can lose these bonuses instantly.

Destruction of Violence (pacifist): no armies on your planets, fleets and starbases do 0 damage. Huge bonuses in return though, giving you an endgame pacifist utopia.

Ignorance is Bliss (authoritarian): freely nervestaples all but the ruling strata. Free thinking is a perk to be earned.

A State without Chains (egalitarian): eliminates all ruler jobs giving each planet the necessary boons directly instead through the Anarchy authority. No ruler either.

Xeno-compatibility (xenophile): already in the game.

Uttermost Purity (xenophobe): must be chosen before researching genemodding, it disables all the ascension paths as well as any modding of your species. Robots are disabled as well. In return it gives several more district slots on planets of your original habitability type.

 

[FoolishOwl]

Thematically, all three ascension paths are horrible. I've tried each one once, and felt sickened each time. I usually avoid them.

 

[KingAlamar]

All your suggestions boils down to flat bonus to something that already exists, nothing comparable to how "different" the actual three Paths work. You could put those suggestions as "end the tradition tree" bonus. THey are hardly Ascension Perks, let alone Ascension Paths in the Psionic/Synth/Bio sense. They don't make the empire really different, just more powerful at something it already had.

I respectfully disagree based on what I see in the game:

• Psy Ascension: Doesn't change any established gameplay mechanics. Adds simple buffs to leaders & workers. Does add the shroud so that's a plus.
• Synth Ascension: Doesn't change any established gameplay mechanics -- just changes your population upkeep to energy. Adds simple buffs to leaders & workers.
• Genetic Ascension: Does nothing except add basic buffs you can't get through standard tech. Gameplay elements unchanged.

So basically if we total up the gameplay changes of the existing ascension types the only unique elements are "The Shroud" and "Change your pop-upkeep from food to energy". None of these changes actually do a single thing for gameplay -- they purely exist for role play / flavor purposes.

If I'm missing something obvious feel free to let me know.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

So basically if we total up the gameplay changes of the existing ascension types the only unique elements are "The Shroud" and "Change your pop-upkeep from food to energy". None of these changes actually do a single thing for gameplay -- they purely exist for role play / flavor purposes.

If I'm missing something obvious feel free to let me know.

You're not if you just look at the numbers BUT roleplay is a big thing for me and changing your pops & leader(s) is one big way to influence your empire, much bigger then a 10% research bonus or even creating gaia worlds. Now all perks should be fleshed out but even if they are and you get new interactions and projects with perks like enigmatic engineering - a species ascending would still be of more concern to me and should get priority when it comes to the improvement of perks.

The big divide being: changing your empire VS changing the pops in your empire.

 

[KingAlamar]

FYI: I am a role player. As in many RPGs I come up with a "character" / inspiration / idea for my empire and then I play through in precisely that manner even if that means I play sub-optimally.

For example in my most recent game I designed an empire around me and a favorite pet cat -- syncretic evolution. I created species traits around the cat's personality and what I would humorously think the cat's opinion of me was. I had this idea in mind behind all of the major decisions in the game [with the exception of meta-gaming AE, Khan, Crisis, and similar events].

The point of what I was trying to do was to make more of a social or empire ascension as opposed to a physical ascension. Not to make one balanced vs. the other mind you but to just throw out ideas of how we could at least tweak the game-play experience.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

FYI: I am a role player. As in many RPGs I come up with a "character" / inspiration / idea for my empire and then I play through in precisely that manner even if that means I play sub-optimally.

For example in my most recent game I designed an empire around me and a favorite pet cat -- syncretic evolution. I created species traits around the cat's personality and what I would humorously think the cat's opinion of me was. I had this idea in mind behind all of the major decisions in the game [with the exception of meta-gaming AE, Khan, Crisis, and similar events].

The point of what I was trying to do was to make more of a social or empire ascension as opposed to a physical ascension. Not to make one balanced vs. the other mind you but to just throw out ideas of how we could at least tweak the game-play experience.

Then you know the amazing things the ascension paths can do and should be able to ;-)

 

[KingAlamar]

You're not if you just look at the numbers

One of the criticisms of my prior ideas were that they were just numbers. My goal was to point out the lunacy of claiming that given that in concrete terms ascension is even more shallow in concrete gameplay terms. It's up to the player's imagination to make physical ascension more meaningful.

Now do I favor changes to physical ascension? ... Sure:

• Maybe we keep Robo / Gene / Psy ascension families but we have sub-branches or even different types of ascension underneath?? Becoming a "creature of light or darkness" Babylon 5 style [or Stargate or pick your popular SciFi] would be interesting.
• Introducing a 3rd layer to ascension instead of branching styles??
• Introducing new gameplay elements for each ascension to make them even more distinct?? Gene modders could get new traits AND could have new systems like auto modding pops for specific jobs. Becoming a Gestault / Hive as an option .. sure. Energy beings not needing consumer goods or amenities -- maybe they commune with the shroud and their home is as much there as in our reality??

 

[KingAlamar]

Then you know the amazing things the ascension paths can do and should be able to ;-)

View attachment 445087

Good point and well made!! Sometimes a picture IS worth a 1000 words .

I agree with you that I would like to see the DEVs take a look at such things and introduce NEW elements to both differentiate play more AND to give us more immersion while [role] playing.

 

[Xaos]

I feel that a few changes need to be made to fix some of the current ascension paths.

For example, if going synthetic ascension also made generator districts give 12 energy instead of 8, and took away 4 food from food districts, that would feel like a big change (though I'd kinda like machine empires should have that as a default).

I'd also like there to be a few more psionic techs so they can feel more fun.

On the space creature breeding, I think it would be nice to be able to actually be able to get an upgrade to their weaponry.

We have bred species extensively and have managed to breed stronger, better versions of them and their weapons.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

I feel that a few changes need to be made to fix some of the current ascension paths.

For example, if going synthetic ascension also made generator districts give 12 energy instead of 8, and took away 4 food from food districts, that would feel like a big change (though I'd kinda like machine empires should have that as a default).

I'd also like there to be a few more psionic techs so they can feel more fun.

On the space creature breeding, I think it would be nice to be able to actually be able to get an upgrade to their weaponry.

We have bred species extensively and have managed to breed stronger, better versions of them and their weapons.

Call the space-cavalry! - A biosphere eating colossus like the Lexx should be a thing.

Being able to change buildings one by one or galaxy wide with a project upon ascension/getting the right research should be a thing and would help with micro - it could work like gene modding and it would be much better than buildings (temples) vanishing when you switch ethics - it might also be a quick fix for the fallen empire bug and be immersive, adapt their buildings for your species this could also be used for changing the appearance of space stations to your own - why should you be able to fully use space stations that were optimized for fungi?

 

[Acheron]

Just tried out the Synthetic ascension. Suddenly, you are deep red in energy, but have so much food that you flood the market. I would suggest that Cyborgs consume half the food of a biological POP and half the energy of a robot POP, this way, one would ease a bit into the different economic requirements.

 

[stlemur]

How about Content Stagnation as a "perk"? You basically become an FE -- no more colonisation or expansion and maluses for fleets doing anything, but bonus stability, stronger defence, cheaper Utopian Abundance and diplomatic options to screw with lesser empires, plus being recognised as an equal by the other FEs