The ascencions have grown a bit stale

[Flame13223]

It might just be me but I am kind of bored by having only the three ascencions, there's a lot times when I want to start a new playthrough with some empire type I havent played yet only to realize I dont really have an ascencion that fits so I end up going biological ascencion or just not even bothering with that playthrough...

Having only 3 options is a bit limiting, the psionic, synthethic and biological ascencions have been in the game for a very long time now...I mean I like having the Xeno-Compatibility in the game, but that's just an added cherry on top its not really a new ascencion path...it could be if there was more to it but currently there isn't really enough for it to be its own thing...

Honestly I wish there were just a bunch more of them. Right now we have Synths for materialists and Psionics for Spiritualists with Biological being the bog standard anyone can do it option. I wonder if we could have one for each ethos and like 2 more standard options or have one for every 2 ethos' with 2-3 standard options...

I'd like a slaver ascencion for example, where on the first level your pops become unable to work worker jobs but you get massive bonuses to slave production and on the 2nd level of the ascencion your slaves will be able to work almost all specialist jobs and you get like a huge bonus to the number of ruler jobs available, and perhaps even have hedonist jobs like fallen empires instead of unemployed status.

Or have a completely millitarized society where every single person serves in the millitary at some point or perhaps all the non millitary jobs are taken over by robots/automation/non-citizen pops, so all your pops just spend their time in combat simulations training for battle...your pops could gain new special combat related traits, and maybe even new, stronger war doctrines could become available.

I also specifically miss not having a non-spiritualist version of telekinetic/telepathic sort of ascencion. Bc right now all we have is the more spiritual Star Wars type religious thing, but I don't really like that version as much as I do the Starcraft, Stranger Things, X-men, Heroes, etc... style of science experiment/mutation giving humans the ability to read minds or communicate with each other or move objects with their minds...


And I know, there's probably some mod that does something and I am tempted to find something but as always, I am not the type of person to accept mods as a replacement for proper official additions to the game.


Anyways, I hope we will get some new stuff for ascencions with new patches or expansions...

 

[OrigamiPhoenix]

I agree. They don't all have to be two-stage ascensions, but the ethics really do need more unique flavors between them.

I'd like to see a pacifist ascension perk that gives defensive war bonuses and a passive alloy production bonus. "Preparedness", or something like that.

 

[Flame13223]

I agree. They don't all have to be two-stage ascensions, but the ethics really do need more unique flavors between them.

I'd like to see a pacifist ascension perk that gives defensive war bonuses and a passive alloy production bonus. "Preparedness", or something like that.

The reason they're two parters is because they are mutually exclusive. You cannot get both synth and genetic ascencion paths so if one is weaker then its less likely that you would go for that one.

Also an ascension path has to modify the pops themselves or the society/strata system they live in in a major way, otherwise its just an ordinary flat bonus perk that isn't really an ascension.

For pacifists I'd say they absolutely need to replace all millitary personal with either remote controlled mechsuits or robots or AI or something, so that they cannot lose actual people in a war, I mean a pacifists wants to kill as few people as possible, right? So I'd even do something like EMP or other non-lethal sort of weaponry for their ships/armies that instead of killing pops just sedate them, maybe you could gain pops that way?

Say you pick the perk and then swap out all your weapons to these non-lethal ones and then if an enemy fleet of a large enough size is defeated you have a chance to gain 1 or more pops in your empire, perhaps they'd automatically be put on the chemical bliss state until they integrate into society?

 

[Theter]

I'd like a physics ascension, basically making you the new Unbidden, at least dark matter could be more useful.

 

[The False King]

I'd love more options in the way for robotic empires to actually have ethos instead of being just gestalt empires. I want to create my furniture selling servitors that seek to make the galaxy as "comfortable" as possible and will stop at nothing until the galaxy is sitting comfortable in it's own chair.

Would be cool to have an ascension that allows you to become a hive mind (similar to i guess how psionic works) or make your machine gestalt consciousness seek to become individuals instead of a collective.

 

[KonradKurze202]

I don't think tying ascensions too much to Ethics is a good idea, for example that Pacifist 'ascension' isn't really an ascension, its just a pacifist specific Perk. I think Ascension paths need to be something bigger, like the existing ones. I could see one where your people ascend into energy beings, transcending a mere fleshy/steely existence. Or turning into a psuedo-hivemind (merging all your pops into a single conciousness), with some slightly different hive mind mechanics (like how robot empires are slightly different from robot ascension ones).

 

[Flame13223]

I don't think tying ascensions too much to Ethics is a good idea, for example that Pacifist 'ascension' isn't really an ascension, its just a pacifist specific Perk. I think Ascension paths need to be something bigger, like the existing ones. I could see one where your people ascend into energy beings, transcending a mere fleshy/steely existence. Or turning into a psuedo-hivemind (merging all your pops into a single conciousness), with some slightly different hive mind mechanics (like how robot empires are slightly different from robot ascension ones).

I do agree that I like the whole energy beings thing and pseudo-hivemind ascencions, however I think you should still have an option for most if not all the ethos'.

I mean the thing I said with pacifists above, you can integrate it in a way that it changes your social/strata system but it depends on your interpretation of pacifism, bc that one I think is one of the most widely interpreted ethos. Like, personally I gave the idea above that you'd no longer work as soldiers, maybe even lose the ability to get admirals/generals altogether, and everything military related is automated now with AI/robots, and you'd gain other bonuses and access to non-lethal weapons. If you don't like robots being mixed in there's other things that you can do, I mean there's the whole 'chill pill'/'joy' idea too. Basically a drug that your whole empire takes and makes them absolutely non-aggressive and peaceful in every way. Or you could push it into a more charismatic/federation orientation but that really depends on your secondary ethos.

That's kind of the thing with pacifism, alone it doesn't really mean much, what matters is what its combined with. Because Xenophobe-Pacifists are fundamentally different to most other Pacifists. So perhaps you leave pacifism out or make 2 different paths for it, its up for debate.

 

[Maethendias]

cough... machine empires dont have ascension at all (and please dont tell me "machineworlds" is ascension, cause that is a feature that only gives terraforming an actual use for machines, AND NOT AN EVOLUTION TO THE MACHINE INTELLIGENCE) (and please, dont even speak of "more traitpoints for robotmodding, that one died with the planet overhaul, NOR is it an evolution to the machine intelligence itself)...


so yeah, ascension needs a bit of work (like alot of other implemented content already)
()

 

[Flame13223]

cough... machine empires dont have ascension at all (and please dont tell me "machineworlds" is ascension, cause that is a feature that only gives terraforming an actual use for machines, AND NOT AN EVOLUTION TO THE MACHINE INTELLIGENCE) (and please, dont even speak of "more traitpoints for robotmodding, that one died with the planet overhaul, NOR is it an evolution to the machine intelligence itself)...


so yeah, ascension needs a bit of work (like alot of other implemented content already)
()

I wasn't mentioning Machine empires specifically but yes they also need work with acensions. Similarly hive minds probably need work with it too...and yes the above suggestion by The False King is actually pretty damn good, I always wanted a machine empire that isn't a gestalt consciousness.

 

[Ciderglove]

This is a rephrased version of a comment I made on Reddit, but I think it's relevant enough to put here.

Stellaris doesn't really feel like sci-fi anymore. Any civilisation you might create feels mundane and familiar. Where are the civilisations like the Culture, the Imperium from Dune, the 40k Imperium of Man, the Republic from Star Wars, etc? Sure, you can try your hand at making a build in imitation of one of these, but the resemblance will be crude and superficial. Once you get down to it, all empires feel pretty much the same to play.

Your civilisation is pretty much the same in 2200 as it is in 2450, which - considering the incomprehensible technological advancement that occurs in that time - is ridiculous.

What we need is two new groups of civics: one from which you can choose a new civic at the start of the Mid-game, and one at the start of the End-game. These would be new developments in politics, power, society and government that reflect the huge cultural/technological/civilisational shifts your empire is going through. Think of the Spacer Guild from Dune, which has an exclusive monopoly over space travel; think of the Imperium of Man's hatred of technology; think of the Culture's intense genetic engineering AND their civilisational human/AI symbiosis. Think of how dynamic and distinct your empires could be with these kind of ideas.

I suppose this is kind of what Ascension Perks are supposed to be, but they are pretty lacklustre. They can be divided into three groups:

1) Megastructure/Ecumenopolis perks. These are perks which almost every player will take in every single game. They unlock fantastical stuff, but the fact that you will almost always take these perks means that they don't really give much flavour.

2) Synthetic, Biological and Psionic ascension paths. These felt pretty transcendental when they first came out, but now I think they feel limited and hackneyed. (And that's when they function properly). Sure, they are big changes in how your society works, but why are we restricted to these three? And why do they have no effect on the way your empire is run?

3) Marginal stat boosts. Bigger naval capacity, more ethics attraction, etc. You can normally wring some use out of these, but god knows they don't feel like 'Ascension'.

You know, it could be that my issues with all empires feeling pretty much the same to play wouldn't have to be solved with mechanical changes to how you play. They might just be solved with better and deeper flavour text. All I know is that, as things stand, Stellaris doesn't make me feel as if I am guiding a real interstellar civilisation, comprised of real people, through monumental changes.

 

[KingAlamar]

I like the "physical ascension" well enough. Robo, Gene-Freaks, Energy / Psychic entities cover most of the tropes well enough. Each could be taken further but in general they are pretty good even if stale.

Maybe what we need is a set of APs that compete with ascension as opposed to replacing ascension?? This would give the players a meaningful choice of to ascend physically OR ascend socially [new-govt-types? new-edicts available? better civics?]

I'd like something that radically changes gameplay / game rules but I am having problems thinking of examples that are both COMPELLING while not being TOO GOOD.

 

[eagletrekkie]

I mean my big gripe about ascensions is that they majorly flavor psionics as synthetics' opposite, when if you actually think about it, biological represents a more obvious opposition to synthetic.

I know the psionics vs synths stuff is all tied up in the fluff around spiritualists vs materialists, and that's a whole other argument, but aside from the soul argument, how are they actually oppositional? Meanwhile Biological and synthetic evolutions are both about adapting the individual to the environment, either by tailoring them to the specific environment and improving their survivability in the biological path, where synthetic evolution seeks to make its citizens able to survive in any environment by making the environment irrelevant to their survival.

Psionics is doing weird RNG stuff and making deals with chaos gods, and getting in flavor/fluff arguments about whether synths have souls. And yet somehow that winds up being the opposite of synthetic ascension.

 

[Optimizt]

My main gripe with the ascensions now is that I feel like I'm selling myself short if I don't take Biological. In previous versions, I'd find myself taking the obvious Synth/Psionic ones if my ethics matched, but if I had no clear one it would be a nice toss-up. I almost never took Biological because I felt it would require too much micro to really optimize, but now that pop growth is king, the quicker I get Fertile on my pops the better I feel. +63% pop growth with the clone vats is not a joke, and I'm usually having to pause every year to queue up new districts and buildings. Psionic is nice for the stability and leader traits I suppose, but the min-maxer in me doesn't like RNG elements. Synthetic has nice habitability/resource bonuses that can't seem to compete with just cloning more Fertile + Robust pops. On top of that, nerve stapling is great for war and lets you ignore just about any malus normally associated with conquered pops.

 

[Flame13223]

I like the "physical ascension" well enough. Robo, Gene-Freaks, Energy / Psychic entities cover most of the tropes well enough. Each could be taken further but in general they are pretty good even if stale.

Maybe what we need is a set of APs that compete with ascension as opposed to replacing ascension?? This would give the players a meaningful choice of to ascend physically OR ascend socially [new-govt-types? new-edicts available? better civics?]

I'd like something that radically changes gameplay / game rules but I am having problems thinking of examples that are both COMPELLING while not being TOO GOOD.

I mean that's just your imagination. I listed slaver options and other stuff along the way here, but I didn't really think about them that long, if I was paid to think about them and had hours to do so I would come up with a lot more new ascensions...

 

[admiral-krause]

I would like to see one Ascension Perk which lets you breed and tame space creatures. Similiar to the Hangar Amoebia you can breed bigger ones in Corvette and Cruiser size.

For materialistic empires there could be an ascension perk for Automatisation enabling the construction of buildings similiar to the fallen empire ones. Simple-Autoforge, Simple-Auto-Hydroponic Farm, Simple-Auto-Civilian-Fabric etc

And i personally would like to see an ascension perk similiar to Colossus but for starbase so like a superfortress for that one important chokepoint

 

[Acheron]

An idea I had recently, what about some Net-ascension, basically, your empire invests massively into a futuristic internet and augmented reality, where this infrastructure gets installed, you get bonus to productivity, happiness and less usage of amenities and housing, as the virtual world satisfies many needs of most individuals. Though to be honest, I only came up with this thinking about an ascension path that would use physics research, which I always seem to have to spare during the later game.

 

[Flame13223]

I would like to see one Ascension Perk which lets you breed and tame space creatures. Similiar to the Hangar Amoebia you can breed bigger ones in Corvette and Cruiser size.

For materialistic empires there could be an ascension perk for Automatisation enabling the construction of buildings similiar to the fallen empire ones. Simple-Autoforge, Simple-Auto-Hydroponic Farm, Simple-Auto-Civilian-Fabric etc

And i personally would like to see an ascension perk similiar to Colossus but for starbase so like a superfortress for that one important chokepoint

Yes I made a discussion about that once that kinda blew up. Its something I look forward to.

 

[KingAlamar]

I mean that's just your imagination. I listed slaver options and other stuff along the way here, but I didn't really think about them that long, if I was paid to think about them and had hours to do so I would come up with a lot more new ascensions...

Honestly I found some of the initial ideas underwhelming ... probably as you said because we haven't thought about them AS OUR JOB. For example I was thinking of giving Authoritarians better edicts ; Materialists a bigger bonus from researched techs ; Militarists have double [uncapped??] starbases ; Egalitarians get better workers & specialists ... maybe a new government form ; etc...

The problem is figuring out a rationale for why you can get the buffs now and why they weren't available earlier?? Are these buffs compelling without being too good? So far I haven't found really good examples.

Physical ascension [Synth / Gene / Psy] is a good enough rationale given SciFi tropes. "Social Ascension" seems less well grounded to me but that's just my POV

****************************************

Originally I was thinking about having "new ascension" tied to ETHICS. Maybe we should tie them to tradition groups instead?

Discovery: Maybe any "buffs" from techs [like + mining output or + weapons damage %] could be dramatically increased
Prosperity: Maybe across the board bonuses to raw production AND lowering upkeep costs could be done
Diplomacy: Agreements do not cost influence for either party [thus no penalties for too many agreements]
Harmony: Dramatic improvements to stability on each planet
...

While the rationale is a little lacking I don't think I'd mind new APs along these general lines.

 

[Flame13223]

Honestly I found some of the initial ideas underwhelming ... probably as you said because we haven't thought about them AS OUR JOB. For example I was thinking of giving Authoritarians better edicts ; Materialists a bigger bonus from researched techs ; Militarists have double [uncapped??] starbases ; Egalitarians get better workers & specialists ... maybe a new government form ; etc...

Yes but these are merely bonuses not exactly ascencions. Think of Sci-fi stuff like surrorgate where you control machines from a distance, it would work well with pacifists considering they dont want to kill anyone, alongside non-lethal weapons and stuff. Or for authoritarians/slavers using non-primary species as workers and most types of specialists and just get a hugely increased number of ruler spots and hedonists as unemployed pops of your main species.

Or that thing I said with Millitarists where your main species all work in the millitary and everything that isn't millitary is replaced by non-citizen pops or robots.

Or things like weird caste systems like in the Tau Empire from Warhammer 40k where it goes even further than just gene modding.

Anyways there's stuff that you can think of really that aren't just plain stat buffs but things that change all the strata in your empire or your pops themselves.

 

[KingAlamar]

Yes but these are merely bonuses not exactly ascencions. Think of Sci-fi stuff like surrorgate where you control machines from a distance, it would work well with pacifists considering they dont want to kill anyone, alongside non-lethal weapons and stuff. Or for authoritarians/slavers using non-primary species as workers and most types of specialists and just get a hugely increased number of ruler spots and hedonists as unemployed pops of your main species.

Or things like weird caste systems like in the Tau Empire from Warhammer 40k where it goes even further than just gene modding.

Anyways there's stuff that you can think of really that aren't just plain stat buffs but things that change all the strata in your empire or your pops themselves.

Well if you REALLY want to re-engineer APs then I think we'd want to throw out the entire AP system and start from scratch. Most APs are in the end just simple buffs to your empire. Heck even most species ascension can be boiled down into Leader, Worker, Specialist buffs. There's not much that really alters gameplay in any meaningful [other than role play] fashion.

Now if you really want to talk shop then I agree with you on one point -- APs should be empire defining and completely change the dynamics of the game when you take them. APs should allow you to break rules, replace old systems with new ones, etc.

Example: While the 'power' ranking is low I like the idea of Enigmatic Engineering. Other species wouldn't be able to figure out your tech by scanning debris from battles. While the change is not huge his AP does take an existing mechanic and completely nullifies it.

What we need is better examples of the above so you can really make your empire & build your own.

FYI: I would prefer fewer APs that are both powerful and game changing compared to the APs we have now which are, in the end, just one basic buff or another but nothing that reshapes your gameplay experience.