According to Uchronia.net (a great source for alternate history book info) the next American Empire book is due sometime in '03. Then sometime after that, the new trilogy starts with a book called "Gunpowder Empire" probably about alt-WW2.
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Gunpowder Empire is actually the first book in a series of AH books for young adults actually.
"The Opposition Triumphant" is due out, most likely in August of '03. I seriously hope that this one is better than the last two, I think that Turtledove's quality of work has really been going down hill the past few years, in my opinion. I loved "GW:AF" but the "American Empire" series has been.....ehhhhhh. Hopefully the next one will be better.
I, personally, want to make a TL based off of two of my favorite AHs from Soc.history.what-if "Lest Anarchy Fall" and "The Shot Heard Around the World". Both should be wonderful(and if LAF, you have even have a Civil war in the US to fight at the time).
BTW, from what I remember from the last few pages of the last book the Silver Shirts under Mosely had taken over control of England, and yes France is once again a Monarchy under the Action l'Francaise. Russia is.....a mess
Ah, good ol Shwi, I frequently lurk there. I haven't been keeping up with a lot of TLs though, because once they get about 15 entries, it gets to be hell trying to look them up. Are "Anarchy" and "Shot" archived anywhere? And yeah, Turtldove's been going downhill since "Guns of the South" IMHO.Originally posted by DanielMcCollum
Gunpowder Empire is actually the first book in a series of AH books for young adults actually.
"The Opposition Triumphant" is due out, most likely in August of '03. I seriously hope that this one is better than the last two, I think that Turtledove's quality of work has really been going down hill the past few years, in my opinion. I loved "GW:AF" but the "American Empire" series has been.....ehhhhhh. Hopefully the next one will be better.
I, personally, want to make a TL based off of two of my favorite AHs from Soc.history.what-if "Lest Anarchy Fall" and "The Shot Heard Around the World". Both should be wonderful(and if LAF, you have even have a Civil war in the US to fight at the time).
BTW, from what I remember from the last few pages of the last book the Silver Shirts under Mosely had taken over control of England, and yes France is once again a Monarchy under the Action l'Francaise. Russia is.....a mess
well that is just because he is setting the stage for WW2 of course i personally cant wait for the next book, even though it will end with the war starting more than likely.
i personally cant wait for the next book, even though it will end with the war starting more than likely.
O and England IS controlled by the silver shirts? dont remember reading that. so England-facist , France- facist monarchy(?), Germany- Monarchy, USA-Democracy(democrats in house), CSA-Fasict coooooorect?
Did it say anywhere who controls Italy?
for other nations we have Quebec-republic, Japan-whatever they were historically, Brazil-Empire, Ottomans- Empire, Mexico-Empire, Netherlands-Kingdom, Belgium-Kingdom
In one of the books (walk in Hell I think) a US army official names off quite a bit of nations in their full names. It was at the ceremony when it was announced of the creation of the Republic of Quebec.
Did Turtledove mention if there were civil wars in Spain or China?
I need to get my books back so I can look this stuff up myself.
for other nations we have Quebec-republic, Japan-whatever they were historically, Brazil-Empire, Ottomans- Empire, Mexico-Empire, Netherlands-Kingdom, Belgium-Kingdom
In one of the books (walk in Hell I think) a US army official names off quite a bit of nations in their full names. It was at the ceremony when it was announced of the creation of the Republic of Quebec.
Did Turtledove mention if there were civil wars in Spain or China?
I need to get my books back so I can look this stuff up myself.
Okay, with the flag templates released, I've whipped up two different CSA flags. One, a simple stars and bars, and the other based on the cover of 'The Center Cannot Hold', if you've seen if you know what I mean.
I also did a quick count of the states in the AE USA and came up with 35 (I wasn't counting Sequoyah). Is this the number we're thinking of using?
Now to discuss various things. Since the game will presumably start in 1936 in this scenario as well, I think we should probably have a Spanish Civil War situation down in Mexico. If I remember correctly, and I'm open to correction here, the parts of Mexico closest to the CSA border were supported by the CSA and the more southerly ones were supported by the USA? And what were the names of each of those Mexicos?
Now, it's sort of hard to predict what Turtledove has planned for Canada, but I think that we'd be looking at a revolution event based on some event during the war to recreate an independent Canada, so we should probably have a flag for that as well. They might keep the same old red ensign, but then again, it might be something different.
The Republic of Quebec is pretty clearly a USA puppet state. I made a flag just using the Quebec provincial flag, and unless someone remembers a reference to it being different than that, this seems to be the way to go. It's sort of hard to tell from the map, but it looks like the RoQ will have two territories.
Keeping with the three possible gov't systems, I think what we have is:
USA - democracy
CSA- fascist
Northern Mexico - fascist
Southern Mexico - democratic
RoQ - democracy (puppet state)
France - fascist (at least that's where it looks like its going)
Britain - democratic (probably, even though there's a fascist movement)
Germany - semi-democratic... hard to say though, to put it in a different 'category', this might have to be the center of the 'communist' world. Not that it would be communist.. ah, you know what I mean
Russia - don't know... tsarist presumably, but not sure where that would fit into the three above... maybe 'communist' with fascist rebel provinces? It's not quite right of course, but we sort of have to twist things, right?
Japan - democratic?
China - has China even been mentioned?
Now, what about the rest of Europe? What about South America? It might be best if responders quoted the list I made above for government systems and then added their suggestions underneath.
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
I also did a quick count of the states in the AE USA and came up with 35 (I wasn't counting Sequoyah). Is this the number we're thinking of using?
Now to discuss various things. Since the game will presumably start in 1936 in this scenario as well, I think we should probably have a Spanish Civil War situation down in Mexico. If I remember correctly, and I'm open to correction here, the parts of Mexico closest to the CSA border were supported by the CSA and the more southerly ones were supported by the USA? And what were the names of each of those Mexicos?
Now, it's sort of hard to predict what Turtledove has planned for Canada, but I think that we'd be looking at a revolution event based on some event during the war to recreate an independent Canada, so we should probably have a flag for that as well. They might keep the same old red ensign, but then again, it might be something different.
The Republic of Quebec is pretty clearly a USA puppet state. I made a flag just using the Quebec provincial flag, and unless someone remembers a reference to it being different than that, this seems to be the way to go. It's sort of hard to tell from the map, but it looks like the RoQ will have two territories.
Keeping with the three possible gov't systems, I think what we have is:
USA - democracy
CSA- fascist
Northern Mexico - fascist
Southern Mexico - democratic
RoQ - democracy (puppet state)
France - fascist (at least that's where it looks like its going)
Britain - democratic (probably, even though there's a fascist movement)
Germany - semi-democratic... hard to say though, to put it in a different 'category', this might have to be the center of the 'communist' world. Not that it would be communist.. ah, you know what I mean
Russia - don't know... tsarist presumably, but not sure where that would fit into the three above... maybe 'communist' with fascist rebel provinces? It's not quite right of course, but we sort of have to twist things, right?
Japan - democratic?
China - has China even been mentioned?
Now, what about the rest of Europe? What about South America? It might be best if responders quoted the list I made above for government systems and then added their suggestions underneath.
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
Do *NOT* full stop repeat DO NOT use the Center Cannot Hold flag, or the mod wouldn't be allowed on this board. No mention would be tolerable. This is a zero-tolerance policy.
Not to upset any Canadian nationalists, but I really think the USA should be given the political option to extend statehood to the Provinces and mitigate the revolutionary movements. It is mentioned in the book that there is a movement (Even a Canadian one) for statehood. I suppose it may increase dissent, (Both Canadian and domestic) but it would make any revolution much less severe.
The Republic of Quebec is pretty clearly a USA puppet state. I made a flag just using the Quebec provincial flag, and unless someone remembers a reference to it being different than that, this seems to be the way to go. It's sort of hard to tell from the map, but it looks like the RoQ will have two territories.
Keeping with the three possible gov't systems, I think what we have is:
USA - democracy
CSA- fascist
Northern Mexico - fascist
Southern Mexico - democratic
RoQ - democracy (puppet state)
France - fascist (at least that's where it looks like its going)
Britain - democratic (probably, even though there's a fascist movement)
Germany - semi-democratic... hard to say though, to put it in a different 'category', this might have to be the center of the 'communist' world. Not that it would be communist.. ah, you know what I mean
Russia - don't know... tsarist presumably, but not sure where that would fit into the three above... maybe 'communist' with fascist rebel provinces? It's not quite right of course, but we sort of have to twist things, right?
Actually, didn't the book mention the revolution occuring as historical? I don't think it mentions communists coming to power, but I seem to hazily recall a revolution forcing Russia to withdraw from the war. I really can't remember if Turtledove mentioned anything about the government after the war, but I would presume that it would be Democratic. (Ala Kerensky) Of course, It's entirely possible that I'm misremembering this or confusing it with another book.
You can pretty much assume that the losers (Argentina) will go fascist, even if Turtledove hasn't mentioned them yet. Brazil will be Autocrat, and I'll assume that Chile will retain its prewar government. (I don't know what it was.)
Which is indeed *WHY* I did not mention what the flag is and *WHY* I pointed out that I had made a simple stars and bars version of the flag. *IF* the Center Cannot Hold flag is not permitted even if not discussed, all the *ADMINISTRATORS* need to do is say so.
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
I think indications are in the books that it would create a great deal of dissent, but I agree, it should be an option. Also this should be the case for Sequoyah.
If I remember correctly, the difference in the revolution is that the tsarists finally defeat the communists. They had to withdraw from the war to fight the communists, but I think the communists were defeated.
Yes, this sounds about right.
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
Turtledove made some references to Stalin and other communists in the American Empire series so far. I think it was in the second books as well, so it may be that the Russian civil war lasts a fairly long time.
We may want to change the start date for the mod. I wouldn't think it to be impossible since there is an EU equivalent (EU Unlimited)
We may want to change the start date for the mod. I wouldn't think it to be impossible since there is an EU equivalent (EU Unlimited)
On the matter of the Russian Civil War. I certainly got the impression that in ran from about 1917 to 1932 or so, or that it might still be going on at the end of AE:TCCH and there is certainly reference to 'Man of Steel' and another leader that escapes my memory right now.
As for the start date change... what would you change it to? 1914? Not terribly exciting IMHO (and in the opinion of most game designers too, apparently
). To a certain extent, the further back you move it, the more difficult it is for the CSA player (or German player in straight-up HoI). This is because without that initial bump where their opponents are twiddling their thumbs, I think they have no real chance at all, making for a very boring game Cheers,
Dr. Charm
Well it doesn't really matter to me what date we start on. If we start earlier we can model the South American wars, the Mexican Civil war, the Russian Civil War, the Ireland "Police Action". I agree with you, Dr. Charm, that the earlier we start it the more difficult it is for the CSA player. I guess we will have to wait for the input of others.
My two cents. BTW I haven't gotten the last book yet.
If you want to know which flag to use look here http://www.fotw.net/flags/us-csa.html
The flag that most people asscoiate with the confederacy was the southern cross but that was just the battle flag. I don't think there is any need to worry about the flag on the Center Can Not Hold. I think the cover was painted that way to prove a point. After all Hitler never comes to power so the Swatica(sp?) never comes to mean Fascism. I think The US and Germany will both be conservative forms of democracy. (In BiB AAR he says Japan starts out with that form of goverment, So I guess germany would have a similar form of goverment) Russia might have communist rebels pockets roaming around. After all it has been said Russia is a mess. But then again when is Russia not a mess? China will still be in civil war, I forgot if anyone mentioned weather or not the turks fell or not. If not they might be still fight civil wars across the middle east. Austria will also continue to decline. I'm not sure if France is fascist or not. They are having something like a 4th empire. I don't know if that's light Paternal Authority or heavy handed democracy. I think we can expect Britain and CSA to be the core Axis. I don't know about Japan. They have no love for the USA or Germany but Don't like the British either. If Britain lost all or most of it's colonies... Japan would have no reason to attack them. Of course that might mean there is a free India tearing it's self appart. Oh and there has to be this event in the game. "1939 Austrian imigrant commited to German insane Asylum. An Austrain who served during the Great War as a corporal was arrested for Vagrancy and commited to an Insane asylum. Although the arresting officer did found nothing paticulary out of the ordinary raving vagabond, Officer Himmler felt that for some odd reason he was doing the world a great service by doing so." effect none
If you want to know which flag to use look here http://www.fotw.net/flags/us-csa.html
The flag that most people asscoiate with the confederacy was the southern cross but that was just the battle flag. I don't think there is any need to worry about the flag on the Center Can Not Hold. I think the cover was painted that way to prove a point. After all Hitler never comes to power so the Swatica(sp?) never comes to mean Fascism. I think The US and Germany will both be conservative forms of democracy. (In BiB AAR he says Japan starts out with that form of goverment, So I guess germany would have a similar form of goverment) Russia might have communist rebels pockets roaming around. After all it has been said Russia is a mess. But then again when is Russia not a mess? China will still be in civil war, I forgot if anyone mentioned weather or not the turks fell or not. If not they might be still fight civil wars across the middle east. Austria will also continue to decline. I'm not sure if France is fascist or not. They are having something like a 4th empire. I don't know if that's light Paternal Authority or heavy handed democracy. I think we can expect Britain and CSA to be the core Axis. I don't know about Japan. They have no love for the USA or Germany but Don't like the British either. If Britain lost all or most of it's colonies... Japan would have no reason to attack them. Of course that might mean there is a free India tearing it's self appart. Oh and there has to be this event in the game. "1939 Austrian imigrant commited to German insane Asylum. An Austrain who served during the Great War as a corporal was arrested for Vagrancy and commited to an Insane asylum. Although the arresting officer did found nothing paticulary out of the ordinary raving vagabond, Officer Himmler felt that for some odd reason he was doing the world a great service by doing so." effect none
Charm- No need to get pissy, dude.
I've seen good threads be shut down because someone decided it would be a good idea to post something they knew they shouldn't and I didn't want that happening here. Chill.
I've seen good threads be shut down because someone decided it would be a good idea to post something they knew they shouldn't and I didn't want that happening here. Chill.
Yup, the Confederate flag is most deffinatly the Stars and Bars, if people will remember the incident in the first series(Walk Through Hell, I believe) where Kimball sails his submarine into a major US harbor and the planes flyign security in the air can't tell the differance between it and the US flag at such a distance.
The flag of the Freedom Party is an inverted Battle Flag, with a Red Cross on a Blue background, its described in the first book of "American Empire".
Also Hitler was hinted at in the last book, serving as an attache for a German General who is visiting Morrell in Canada. The attache is given a good tounge lashing by both Morrell and the German officer as well
The flag of the Freedom Party is an inverted Battle Flag, with a Red Cross on a Blue background, its described in the first book of "American Empire".
Also Hitler was hinted at in the last book, serving as an attache for a German General who is visiting Morrell in Canada. The attache is given a good tounge lashing by both Morrell and the German officer as well
Woah, I missed that allusion! The one concerning Hitler that being . I just figured that he was just a germen who blamed things on Jews(As the radio broadcaster in the CSA sayed somewhere)
. I just figured that he was just a germen who blamed things on Jews(As the radio broadcaster in the CSA sayed somewhere)
Yeah, Turtledove really loves putting famous people in his books, even way after the change in history. In the Center Can Not Hold he had Hitler, Hemingway, Joe Kennedy...try the Two Georges: The Revoloutionary war is averted and yet there's still a Nixon, Jack Kennedy, and MLK jr.Originally posted by OldManinMUN
Woah, I missed that allusion! The one concerning Hitler that being