The American Civil War - and how your perception changes when you learn about it

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Orinsul

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JFK was legend before being assassinated, for being the first catholic, the young man and the cult of camelot he'd have been glorified and his faults forgotten no matter what happened.
Assassination made him globally famous though, without it he'd be remembered as an American president, probably one everyone could name like raegan or roosevelt, but not one everyone would know the story of.
McKinley and Garfield didn't get fame out of dying after all, you need to be important then die.

As to freeing the slaves, I've heard a good argument that Buchanan set up the civil war and all Lincoln did was inherit it.
So the reason for Lincoln being golden of legacy is just that he was elected after Buchanan, and anyone else becoming president that year would have gotten the legacy of saving the union and ending slavery, as it they nothing to do with Lincoln, just the civil war was already starting and ending Slavery being a natural consequence of the civil war dragging on and slaves being a good asset to help win it.
Who knows though.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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Lincoln was smart enough to recognize at this point in August of 1862 that saving the Union without addressing slavery was impossible. He never would have thought about emancipation solely in terms of winning the war, because emancipation required a complete change in the government's thinking vis a vis black citizenship and the complete dismantling of slavery (whereas the federal government had previously tolerated, sometimes even promoted, slavery). And the evidence shows that Lincoln thought intently about these questions and became more serious about integrating blacks into American society as time went on.

A couple of days ago I spent an hour crafting a lengthy reply to this well crafted, articulate, post. And it was eaten by the Paradox log-out error monster. Grrr, soooo tired of that. But since the topic is still on the table, I’ll try again.

Whatever else, Lincoln was a political genius. Ultimately, he wanted an end to the institution of slavery, as do all right-thinking people. But he was rather pragmatic about his approach to the problem; brilliant, even. Too bad he did not get to finish what he started because I believe his end-result would have been far different than the one we actually got.

No one altered the power of the executive branch of the US government more than Lincoln did. Lincoln did things that were down-right unconstitutional but were so effective they were permitted and repeated by his successors.

Lincoln was the living embodiment of the phrase 'keep your friends close, and your enemies closer'. I enjoyed Gore Vidal’s portrait of the man's ability to build coalitions and let others think they were in charge while he held the reins firmly in his hand. He never showed the whip until it was absolutely necessary, and never without success. His personal life, his struggles with depression and madness, are legendary. The incredibly powerful asset that was his wife, whom he married for political reasons at the cost of his own happiness, was a total loon but helped get him the office he sought.

It is highly regrettable that he was assassinated before he had a chance to end the war on his terms. Lincoln's goal was to reunite North and South as brothers returning to the same family. The less animosity and acrimony, the more successful the peace would be; particularly for the newly freed slaves who refused his offer to return them to Africa.

Conveniently, (at least for Stanton’s dreams of post-war America), Lincoln’s bodyguard, John Parker, leaves his post to go watch ‘My American Cousin’ that fateful night at Ford’s Theater. At intermission, Parker goes to the Star Saloon next door. John Wilkes Boothe, also have a pre-assassination cocktail at Star Saloon, leaves when Parker arrives and walks into Ford’s Theater where he shoots Lincoln in the back of the head before uttering ‘Sic Semper Tyrannus’. (Draw your own conclusions about Parker’s actions. Parker’s compatriots and Mrs. Lincoln both blamed the man for Lincoln’s death; and despite his failure he was kept on the payroll for years. And the manhunt and death of Boothe has begged questions that have gone unanswered for years, but we aren't likely to answer those questions here.)

The War Department in general, and Stanton in particular, wanted peace imposed on the South in the harshest terms possible: military occupation, economic profiteering, humiliation and degradation. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Why? Owning slaves? Or payback for the Union blood spilled during the war? Very much the latter; for if ‘all men are created equal’ is the credo of the Union Army, explain to me Sherman’s “Final Solution to the Indian Problem” as he unleashed Sheridan’s campaign of absolute genocide on the Plains Indians for corporate gain after the war was concluded.

Lincoln’s dream of a peaceful reunion died that night at Ford’s Theater; the great “what might have been” of peaceful coexistence died with him. Instead, you have a hundred years of Segregation in both the North and the South, and Strange Fruit swinging from the trees in almost every state of the Union. My contention throughout is that if Lincoln had lived, and the reconciliation between the North and the South had been amicable and the re-uniting of brothers as Uncle Abe intended, the plight of blacks in America would have been a vastly different tale than the one that unfolded because of the hate-filled rage unleashed by Reconstruction.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as has been said many times before. The question is when are we going to stop picking at the scab and let the wound heal?
 
Last edited:

Yakman

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i find it hard to imagine that southerners would have accepted black emancipation any better with lincoln alive than they did with him dead.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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.. And it was eaten by the Paradox log-out error monster....

OT answer to OT part :
Are you still on the old account and not the new one where you have to enter your email ? If so, check the little box "Keep me logged in " or somesuch alongside the log in box where you enter the forum name.
Then that log-out error monster shouldn't happen again, as far as i remember.
 

SDSkinner

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Then came the Ken Burns documentary series about the ACW and Shelby Foote. That surely changed everything.
IIRC only 2% of the Southerns possessed slaves and the majority was in favour of abolishing slavery. It would have probably taken another 20-30 years for the problem to resolve itself.

http://civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm
Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half.

Instead Abe Lincoln wanted to make a name for himself. The Southerners are proud people that always were sceptical of the Union because they felt patronized by the North-dominated senate. When Lincoln took office, those feelings were vastly increased and that's why they finally opted for independence.

The Senate was split 50/50 and in fact was dominated by the South and Northern allies (they banned discussion of slavery in the 1830s). The South was upset because they felt the North was defaulting on their constitutional obligations- there were Northerners fighting against the Fugitive Slave Law (because while Northerners may have thought blacks were less than whites, they still believed they had the right to have their day in court). Additionally Northerners were attempting to abolish slavery in areas the federal government had sway, which included the territories because they thought this would inevitably cause slavery to die out. The Supreme Court ruled that the federal government couldn't do that- that slavery, if it was protected in one state was protected throughout the United States (which is a reasonable interpretation of the full faith and credit clause) and that black people had no rights that the government was under any obligation to protect (which was not remotely a reasonable interpretation of any part of the constitution).

Add in abolitionist actions and the South felt the North wasn't fulfilling its obligations and the North felt the South was asking for things which were totally insane. In fact given that you could appear white and be considered a black person, it is very easy for a Northerner to sympathize- after all, you might not be a mutallo, but since you aren't allowed to defend yourself in court, the fact you are a white person doesn't matter.

Why wouldn't you be able to leave the Union if you so choose? Does entering a union bind you to it for eternity? How's that democratic?

The United States wasn't democratic until the 1830s; it wasn't meant to be because the founders believed democracy lead to mob rule. Complaining that its structure isn't democratic isn't really relevant since it wasn't meant to be democratic in the first place.

Instead it was dishonest Abe who broke a variety of laws (Kentucky for instance) and democratic values to save his own ass. He didn't care too much about the slaves (see his speech about saving the union with or without freeing a single slave).

Because he considered the US more important? It was, at the time, pretty much the only democracy on the planet and Americans venerated it and the constitution to a remarkable degree.

Had he not provoked the South into war, he would have been considered the worst president ever. He would have destroyed the Union after all. So he had to get his war and correct his mistake at all cost.
That he freed the slaves in the end and got assassinated was a blessing for his legacy. Similar to JFK who was a horrible president. Being assassinated somehow makes you a hero and mutes all valid criticism.

War was inevitable. The Southern complaint was that the North was failing to live up to the promises under the Fugitive Slave law and attempting to stop the spread of slavery to the west. Neither of these issues could be resolved by secession.
 

Arilou

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JFK was legend before being assassinated, for being the first catholic, the young man and the cult of camelot he'd have been glorified and his faults forgotten no matter what happened.
Assassination made him globally famous though, without it he'd be remembered as an American president, probably one everyone could name like raegan or roosevelt, but not one everyone would know the story of.
McKinley and Garfield didn't get fame out of dying after all, you need to be important then die.

As to freeing the slaves, I've heard a good argument that Buchanan set up the civil war and all Lincoln did was inherit it.
So the reason for Lincoln being golden of legacy is just that he was elected after Buchanan, and anyone else becoming president that year would have gotten the legacy of saving the union and ending slavery, as it they nothing to do with Lincoln, just the civil war was already starting and ending Slavery being a natural consequence of the civil war dragging on and slaves being a good asset to help win it.
Who knows though.

It's probably also worth noting that the situation on the ground probably changed quicker than for the politicians: Slaves were taking every chance they could to run away (and in some cases, fight) the institution was already disintegration as the war went on, and re-enforcing it would have required active effort on the part of the Federal government.

The fair solution would of course have been to have taken the opportunity to reimburse african-americans for their enslavement. (something that people did push for) but obviously that wasn't very interesting to anyone else.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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OT answer to OT part :
Are you still on the old account and not the new one where you have to enter your email ? If so, check the little box "Keep me logged in " or somesuch alongside the log in box where you enter the forum name.
Then that log-out error monster shouldn't happen again, as far as i remember.

Thank you for the suggestion, I do appreciate it, but unfortunately I've been working with tech support for two weeks on this issue of account migration and there is something seriously wrong with the account. Not fixed yet, but hope springs eternal.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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i find it hard to imagine that southerners would have accepted black emancipation any better with lincoln alive than they did with him dead.

Maybe. Who knows. And it isn't Lincoln's life that made the difference in the argument, just his intent. With Lincoln you have peace with honor, peace with friendship, reconciliation of warring brothers. Without Lincoln you have a harsh peace designed to humiliate and degrade a proud people; both Southerners and Native Americans, brute military occupation and wholesale genocide. Speculation, but you have to ask yourself, 'what if'.

Just my opinion, but peace with honor avoids massive quantities of pain and suffering that might otherwise have been avoided. Not all, probably, but the lion's share.
 

Herbert West

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Maybe. Who knows. And it isn't Lincoln's life that made the difference in the argument, just his intent. With Lincoln you have peace with honor, peace with friendship, reconciliation of warring brothers. Without Lincoln you have a harsh peace designed to humiliate and degrade a proud people; both Southerners and Native Americans, brute military occupation and wholesale genocide. Speculation, but you have to ask yourself, 'what if'.

Just my opinion, but peace with honor avoids massive quantities of pain and suffering that might otherwise have been avoided. Not all, probably, but the lion's share.

You mean, the idea that slavery needs to be stamped out might have been burned into the mind of the South strong enough so they dont go all Jim Crow a couple years after the guns fall silent? Sign me up.

The North was incredibly soft of the South. I know, I know, Atlanta and all, but notice that Atlanta is the exception.
 

Yakman

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Maybe. Who knows. And it isn't Lincoln's life that made the difference in the argument, just his intent. With Lincoln you have peace with honor, peace with friendship, reconciliation of warring brothers. Without Lincoln you have a harsh peace designed to humiliate and degrade a proud people; both Southerners and Native Americans, brute military occupation and wholesale genocide. Speculation, but you have to ask yourself, 'what if'.

Just my opinion, but peace with honor avoids massive quantities of pain and suffering that might otherwise have been avoided. Not all, probably, but the lion's share.
umm... after Lincoln's assassination, a southern sympathiser and slaveowner became president. he did whatever he could to subvert the agenda that Lincoln had put into place.

"Peace with honor" doesn't solve the problem of horrible racists getting really angry about losing their human property and that human property being given the franchise.

Reconstruction was going to happen under any plan - the KKK and its sundry evils would likely have emerged with Lincoln alive. If anything, I would imagine that Lincoln, having freed the slaves, would have guaranteed their civil liberties, something that Andrew Johnson had little concern for, and which was the primary cause for the "white citizens committees" and the rise of terrorist organizations throughout the South.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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umm... after Lincoln's assassination, a southern sympathiser and slaveowner became president. he did whatever he could to subvert the agenda that Lincoln had put into place.

"Peace with honor" doesn't solve the problem of horrible racists getting really angry about losing their human property and that human property being given the franchise.

Reconstruction was going to happen under any plan - the KKK and its sundry evils would likely have emerged with Lincoln alive. If anything, I would imagine that Lincoln, having freed the slaves, would have guaranteed their civil liberties, something that Andrew Johnson had little concern for, and which was the primary cause for the "white citizens committees" and the rise of terrorist organizations throughout the South.

Don't be naive. Andrew Johnson was hamstrung and rendered impotent from the outset. Lincoln had too much cache to be dismissed by the War Department and their corporate backers. Killed yes, dismissed, no. But i forget you see little but racial hatred, and that is where your ability to reason stops. Another time, perhaps.
 

Orinsul

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Ok, Is it true that the KKK didn't start off racist, but was a boring veterans club and that the guy who founded it (Forrest)), rather than being a super racist, tried to close it down because he didn't like it being taken over by super racists who had no respect for the law and so while remembered for the legacy of the KKK really was against it entirely, hating the bigotry and violence, and just wanted a club to look after confederate veterans and give them something to do of an evening?

As I've heard that story alot, but never in a book, and I haven't found things on the net to back that version up either. But it's the version of the story you always hear from actual people talking, so is there any truth in it?
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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Ok, Is it true that the KKK didn't start off racist, but was a boring veterans club and that the guy who founded it (Forrest)), rather than being a super racist, tried to close it down because he didn't like it being taken over by super racists who had no respect for the law and so while remembered for the legacy of the KKK really was against it entirely, hating the bigotry and violence, and just wanted a club to look after confederate veterans and give them something to do of an evening?As I've heard that story alot, but never in a book, and I haven't found things on the net to back that version up either. But it's the version of the story you always hear from actual people talking, so is there any truth in it?

From what I recall, the KKK started off as more anti-catholic than racist and then gradually drifted toward racism.


I'll give you a quick history because Sunlight is the best disenfectant. The Klan has to be studied like the Mafia has to be studied, and other secret organizations have to be studied; you watch them from outside the door and come to your own conclusions. And those conclusions invariably lead you never, ever want to knock on their door.

Full disclosure: I hate the Klan. On one hand, their leadership is capable of raising valid questions and logical arguments; on the other, their solutions usually morph into something completely illogical, overtly criminal, and borderline insane. They are a group that ostensibly is a patriotic paramilitary organization, but consistently and inevitably moves into acts of racist violence and abuse of power that can not be condoned.

The first iteration was formed in Tennessee, and NB Forrest was an early recruit. Forrest claimed sympathy with the Klan without ever acknowledging membership. But he was also involved in helping to dissolve the first iteration of the Klan. Whether or not he was the Grand Wizard, or whatever title they were using at the time, is open to debate. He did claim the ability to rally several thousand 'dragoon' to ride with him upon request. Technically, it was a paramilitary organization designed to protect citizens from some of the more vicious depredations of the Army of the Republic and their attendant Carpetbaggers. However, when it began its more violent manifestation later, it was dissolved 'officially' primarily because of Forrest's outrage at the turn the organization took.

It was the second iteration of the Klan, formed in the 20's, that began the 'All-American' image they carried into their 'Birth of a Nation' mythology. The Klan was so popular that Hugo Black was elected to the Supreme Court after merely explaining 'you had to go along to get along' when questioned about it. (paraphrased) The second iteration was formed on a Nativist platform that was primarily anti-Catholic, anti-'furaner', anti-anyone who didn't think like they thought. Its membership peaked at around 7 million upstanding citizens who had actual credibility in their local communities. They openly marched through hometowns and paraded en masse through America's capitol. This middle-class, upstanding, membership was spread broadly across the South, Midwest, North, Canada, etc. They were brought crashing down when the hubris of some rather stupid personal criminal activities on the part of their leadership became front page scandals in the 30's and 40's.

The 3rd iteration grew out of the fears of De-segregation during the 1960's, and they were just bad. Guys like Dynamite Bob Hayes, and actions like blowing up churches and killing little girls, in addition to their various contributions to the Strange Fruit crops around the South. They were driven down hard at the hands of the Feds and groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center. When the national offices were sued out of existence, guys like David Duke started local klan chapters and ultimately the National Association for the Advancement of White People. :rolleyes:

Duke was small potatoes. The guy who was the real threat was William Pierce and the National Alliance. His Turner Diaries, and his concept of becoming the prophet of racism while never dirtying his hands caused untold pain and suffering. The Oklahoma City Bombing, and much of the Militia movement of White Supremicists, can be linked back more to Pierce than anyone else. Turner Diaries is as close to canon doctrine as you can find to the current variations of the highly deadly Aryan Brotherhood.

Racism is very real. It hasn't gone away, despite whatever post-racist BS you want to invoke. There are whites who hate blacks just because they are black, there are blacks who hate whites just because they are white. And you can put Asians, Latinos, Muslims, and most every other ethnicity into that blender. There are people on both sides who make sweeping generalizations that defy logic, and a few of them dwell among us here on this forum scattered around the globe consumed by their own personal hatreds. But as I said, sunlight is the best disenfectant. The more knowledge there is on the subject, the more forgiveness, the greater the chance more people can be brought into the camp of the middle way where we can all just get along and co-exist in peace.
 
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Kovax

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One recent incident shed a bit of light on the subject, at least in my own understanding.

I was at a rock bar, and some small commotion caught my attention. A bunch of patrons were heading toward the door with obvious purpose, and I followed to see what was up. It seems that there was some Klan member/sympathizer/wannabe/whatever who had been putting hate literature under the windshield wipers of all the cars in the parking lot. When someone spotted him, he ran back to his old battered and half-putty-and-primer pickup truck and drove away, directly over one of the parking barriers. That was sufficient to tear off the rear bumper of the truck, along with the attached license plate, which he probably never noticed was gone.

After making a cursory reading of bits and pieces of the rambling (and semi-coherent at best) text stuck on my own windshield, I quickly dismissed the guy as a nutcase, and a stupid one at that. It seems to me that the strongest adherents to such philosophies of hatred and exclusion are those who consider themselves to be the most threatened by newcomers to the society: the lowest socio-economic tier. Those who have a comfortable place in the society have no fear of being marginalized or bumped off the ladder to success, and don't mind sharing some of that prosperity as much as those who have next to nothing, and are afraid of losing even that.

I recall an acquaintance in college whose initials were KKK, and his car had a personalized license plate with his initials. The car was repeatedly trashed and dented with blunt instruments, until he replaced the plate with a typical pseudo-random sequence like most of the other plates.

In terms of the abolition of slavery, I feel that the Union was essentially in the right. The tariff and tax issues are more nebulous, and were probably necessary to a degree in order to industrialize the nation, but were almost certainly pushed harder by the North than could be tolerated by the South. With regard to the rights of States versus the Federal Government in general, I consider the ACW to have been a disaster, with the Fed having turned into a bloated and out-of-control monster as a result. There's enough blame for both sides to share, and not a lot of easy answers.

Buchannan may have won the election before Lincoln precisely because he was weak, and unlikely to force anything to happen. With an impending blow-up over the popular slavery issue and less-visible tariff and tax burden inequalities becoming increasingly difficult to avoid, his election merely delayed the inevitable, while doing nothing to dampen the increase in small but violent "incidents". Lincoln, or any other strong President with an agenda, was all but guaranteed to find himself with an actual war on his hands.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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It seems to me that the strongest adherents to such philosophies of hatred and exclusion are those who consider themselves to be the most threatened by newcomers to the society: the lowest socio-economic tier. Those who have a comfortable place in the society have no fear of being marginalized or bumped off the ladder to success, and don't mind sharing some of that prosperity as much as those who have next to nothing, and are afraid of losing even that.

Nope, not at all. You can find the same in the middle and upper class. It just doesn't show.
All that differs are the emphases regarding the reasons.
 

Ming

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It seems to me that the strongest adherents to such philosophies of hatred and exclusion are those who consider themselves to be the most threatened by newcomers to the society: the lowest socio-economic tier. Those who have a comfortable place in the society have no fear of being marginalized or bumped off the ladder to success, and don't mind sharing some of that prosperity as much as those who have next to nothing, and are afraid of losing even that.

This is a good point. There was plenty of violence after the Freedmen were enfranchised and the post war political order was shaking out, but after the Klan was destroyed it began to die down. Although incidents never completely went away, the 'terror' really came roaring back after the end of reconstruction when the poor and middle class whites had a lot more economic reasons to want African American competition out of their way due to an agricultural depression.

Nope, not at all. You can find the same in the middle and upper class. It just doesn't show.
All that differs are the emphases regarding the reasons.

You're right too, but they often had different economic motivations. Landowners wanted their labor supply guaranteed and kept cheap. Middle class wanted political and economic dominance, the poor were more about scrabbling for their bread, jobs and/or land. The racial attitudes and rhetoric obscure some of this, but it's there.
 
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eleetsdier

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Then came the Ken Burns documentary series about the ACW and Shelby Foote. That surely changed everything.
IIRC only 2% of the Southerns possessed slaves and the majority was in favour of abolishing slavery. It would have probably taken another 20-30 years for the problem to resolve itself.

Your view of how vested the South was in slavery is grossly inaccurate, as a quick look at the 1860 Census demonstrates. In every state that joined the Confederacy at least 20% of the households owned slaves. In the first state to secede that number was almost 50%. 50% of households in a state owned slaves, yet you feel the problem would just "go away" in 20-30 years without any action being taken?

Instead Abe Lincoln wanted to make a name for himself. The Southerners are proud people that always were skeptical of the Union because they felt patronized by the North-dominated senate. When Lincoln took office, those feelings were vastly increased and that's why they finally opted for independence.

The North dominated the House, not the Senate. The Senate is where your proud Southerners beat a man half to death. Also, didn't the first wave of secession happen before Lincoln took office?

Why wouldn't you be able to leave the Union if you so choose? Does entering a union bind you to it for eternity? How's that democratic? Instead it was dishonest Abe who broke a variety of laws (Kentucky for instance) and democratic values to save his own ass. He didn't care too much about the slaves (see his speech about saving the union with or without freeing a single slave). Had he not provoked the South into war, he would have been considered the worst president ever. He would have destroyed the Union after all. So he had to get his war and correct his mistake at all cost.

Lincoln gave a pretty interesting legal argument against the ability to secede. When an attempt was made to amend the Confederate Constitution with an explicit guarantee of the right of secession the amendment died in committee. Were they any more democratic? What's more, what does that have to do with anything - Also, it's worth pointing out that the secessionist states were not immediately brought into line. It's only when they decided to take by force Federal lands that had once been theirs that arms were raised against them.

Don't get me wrong - Lincoln wasn't a perfect president and he most assuredly (like all politicians) wasn't always honest. Also, the North wasn't opposing slavery from the goodness of its heart. While there were abolitionists, the majority of the Republican anti-slavery support was because additional slave states were expected to cost honest white farmers jobs. But demonizing him or the North while pretending the South were somehow the good guys is pretty absurd.

A number of people made the incredibly outlandish claim that the South was seceding over tariffs. I don't know what to say to them, except that perhaps they should consider asking the South why it seceded.

First to secede was South Carolina:
For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

Next was Mississippi:
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

Florida:
By the agency of a large proportion of the members from the non slaveholding States books have been published and circulated amongst us the direct tendency and avowed purpose of which is to excite insurrection and servile war with all their attendant horrors. A President has recently been elected, an obscure and illiterate man without experience in public affairs or any general reputation mainly if not exclusively on account of a settled and often proclaimed hostility to our institutions and a fixed purpose to abolish them. It is denied that it is the purpose of the party soon to enter into the possession of the powers of the Federal Government to abolish slavery by any direct legislative act. This has never been charged by any one. But it has been announced by all the leading men and presses of the party that the ultimate accomplishment of this result is its settled purpose and great central principle. That no more slave States shall be admitted into the confederacy and that the slaves from their rapid increase (the highest evidence of the humanity of their owners will become value less. Nothing is more certain than this and at no distant day. What must be the condition of the slaves themselves when their number becomes so large that their labor will be of no value to their owners. Their natural tendency every where shown where the race has existed to idleness vagrancy and crime increased by an inability to procure subsistence. Can any thing be more impudently false than the pretense that this state of things is to be brought about from considerations of humanity to the slaves.

Alabama is a little subtler, but when the Ordnance of Secession claims the US is hostile to Alabama's institutions they mean slavery. This is made abundantly clear when they later talk about forming a club of slave-holding states.

Georgia:
The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party to whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees it its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization.

Texas:
In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

So of the original secessionists all of them except Louisiana clearly state that their secession is about slavery. Louisiana probably does too, I just can't find the document at the moment. If the states themselves were clear that they were seceding because of strong anti-slavery sentiment and an anti-slavery President, why on earth does anyone claim it's because of tariffs?
 

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Don't be naive. Andrew Johnson was hamstrung and rendered impotent from the outset. Lincoln had too much cache to be dismissed by the War Department and their corporate backers. Killed yes, dismissed, no. But i forget you see little but racial hatred, and that is where your ability to reason stops. Another time, perhaps.
so... by your argument Johnson was hamstrung in his efforts to conciliate with the southerners and suppress black rights.

Lincoln, on the other hand, would have had no such problems.

i fail to see how Lincoln's life would have prevented Reconstruction - just as I fail to see how the KKK and the white citizens councils and their vicious ilk were a response to the "depradations" of the US Army and the alleged "carpetbaggers".

Even in 1865, the new Southern legislatures were passing anti-freedmen laws and the former slaves were being re-shackled into sharecropper status.

do you really believe that Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed the slaves, would allow the former slaveowners to effectively re-enslave them and deny them access to the franchise? "Peace with Honor" is fine, but it requires two partners. The southern Democratic party proved that it was uninterested in participating by its actions... which lasted for a century.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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My point, repeatedly, is you only see hated devoid of reason. Your brain turns off when this begins, so forgive me for bowing out of your part of this conversation. I'll catch you in another thread.