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First Lieutenant
Mar 23, 2002
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Okay - quick premise: Many of the current unit standards are out of whack with both historical information and play balance. I'd like to try a large modification of all the units base stats and the technologies that affect them. The primary aim is to come closer to historical accuracy while preserving play balance and keeping a reason for each unit type to exist.

To that end - I'll start with my basic ideas on the units. (concentrating on land units first - more later)

Assumptions: (mine - if any are contradicted by the published "offical" info(or common sense), please point me at it)

First off, every "base" unit type represents a formation of roughly divisional strength (by roughly western standards - 15000 effectives or so).

These "base" units, without any attachments or tech upgrades are armed with WWI era small arms and no more than a battalion of "attached" WWI era guns of any sort.

The supporting elements of each of these divisions are assumed to be of the same type as the division. (Thus a motorized division has a motorized arty battalion, recon battalion etc)

The four possible attached units - Engineers, Artillery, Anti-Tank, Anti-Aircraft, represent a brigade sized unit (roughly an additional 1/4 to 1/3 of a division). They still share the primary type of the parent division - thus a brigade of engineers attached to a Panzer or Mechanized division would be mechanized engineers.

Units:
Militia: poorly trained, led and equipped infantry. Should benefit from advances in mortars, personal anti-tank weapons (think Hitler Youth with panzerfausts) and basic small arms - probably also from basic medical/first aid technologies. No real benefits from doctrines. Should have lower ground/air defence than infantry due to panic etc.

Infantry: heavy infantry, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds and infantry guns of all sizes. Smaller benefits from improvements in anti-tank, anti-air, field artillery, engineering gear - representing "organic" components.

Mountaineers: light infantry, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds, specialist equipment and infantry guns of up to 75mm. Smaller benefits from improvements in anti-tank(up to 40mm), anti-air (up to 40mm), field artillery(up to 75mm), engineering gear - representing "organic" components.

Paratroopers: light infantry, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds, and specialist equipment/doctrines. Smaller benefits from improvements in engineering gear - representing an "organic" component. No "organic" AT/AA/Arty elements assumed.

Marines: heavy infantry, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds, specialist equipment/doctrines and infantry guns(up to 100mm). Smaller benefits from improvements in anti-tank, anti-air, field artillery(up to 100mm), engineering gear - representing "organic" components.

Cavalry: effectively light infantry due to travel constraints, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds, specialist equipment and infantry guns of up to 75mm. Smaller benefits from improvements in anti-tank(up to 40mm), anti-air (up to 40mm), field artillery(up to 75mm), engineering gear - representing "organic" components.
Higher cost/time due to horses and increased vulnerability to air attack.

Mechanized/Motorized: heavy infantry, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds, vehicle technology and infantry guns. Smaller benefits from improvements in anti-tank, anti-air, field artillery, engineering gear, assault guns and tank destroyers - representing "organic" components. Increased vulnerability to air attack, decreased vulnerability to ground fire (for mechs at least).

Armored: assumed to be 2-3 armored regiments+1-2 heavy infantry regiments, trained and led well enough to benefit from doctrines, C3 improvements, logistics, medics etc. Benefits from advances in mortars, personal weapons of all kinds and all the vehicle technology. Smaller benefits from improvements in anti-tank, anti-air, field artillery, engineering gear, assault guns and tank destroyers - representing "organic" components.
Effective speed limited to that of mechanized/motorized units by support elements. Increased vulnerability to air attack, decreased vulnerability to ground fire.

The attachementment units should benefit from all the techs in their categories, but to a greater degree than a "base" unit.

So with all that nonsense spouted ;-) my basic unit stats are:

Militia
cost = 3
buildtime = 34
manpower = 10
maxspeed = 3
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 2
airdefence = 1
softattack = 1
hardattack = 0
airattack = 0
transportweight = 10
supplyconsumption = 0
fuelconsumption = 0

Infantry
cost = 5
buildtime = 70
manpower = 10
maxspeed = 3
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 3
airdefence = 3
softattack = 2
hardattack = 1
airattack = 1
transportweight = 15
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 0

Mountaineer
cost = 6
buildtime = 120
manpower = 10
maxspeed = 3
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 3
airdefence = 3
softattack = 2
hardattack = 0
airattack = 1
transportweight = 10
supplyconsumption = .8
fuelconsumption = 0

Paratrooper
cost = 6
buildtime = 120
manpower = 8
maxspeed = 4
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 3
airdefence = 3
softattack = 1
hardattack = 0
airattack = 0
transportweight = 5
supplyconsumption = .5
fuelconsumption = 0

Marine
cost = 6
buildtime = 120
manpower = 10
maxspeed = 3
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 3
airdefence = 3
softattack = 2
hardattack = 0
airattack = 1
transportweight = 10
supplyconsumption = 1
fuelconsumption = 0

Cavalry
cost = 5
buildtime = 90
manpower = 9
maxspeed = 6
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 2
airdefence = 2
softattack = 2
hardattack = 0
airattack = 1
transportweight = 30
supplyconsumption = 1.5
fuelconsumption = 0

Motorized
cost = 6
buildtime = 120
manpower = 10
maxspeed = 8
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 3
airdefence = 1
softattack = 2
hardattack = 1
airattack = 1
transportweight = 30
supplyconsumption = 1.2
fuelconsumption = 2


Mechanized
cost = 8
buildtime = 120
manpower = 10
maxspeed = 8
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 4
airdefence = 1
softattack = 2
hardattack = 1
airattack = 1
transportweight = 30
supplyconsumption = 1.5
fuelconsumption = 3.5

Armored (pre-war tank)
cost = 10
buildtime = 180
manpower = 7
maxspeed = 8
defaultorganisation = 30
grounddefence = 4
airdefence = 1
softattack = 4
hardattack = 1
airattack = 1
transportweight = 30
supplyconsumption = 2
fuelconsumption = 2

Attachments:
(note all attachements SHOULD add transport weight - will edit that in after I think it over a bit)

Engineers
cost = 2
buildtime = 30
maxspeed = 1
grounddefence = 1
supplyconsumption = 1

Anti-Tank
cost = 5
buildtime = 60
manpower = 4
hardattack = 2
supplyconsumption = 1

Anti-Aircraft
cost = 4
buildtime = 40
manpower = 4
maxspeed = -1
hardattack = 1
airattack = 2
supplyconsumption = 1

Artillery
cost = 5
buildtime = 60
manpower = 4
maxspeed = -1
softattack = 2
hardattack = 1
supplyconsumption = 1

Bear in mind that those stats are without any improvements - working out the exact tech improvements is in the works.
 

unmerged(2716)

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Apr 6, 2001
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Great idea and very reflective post! I agree with your assumptions and have been pretty much assuming much of the same. Have yet to compare and digest your base unit values with default HoI or Bolt's values. I look forward to seeing where this leads.
 

Bossemanden

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The only problem I se is that you cant improve militia wit techadvances. The game reports an error if you try.
 

unmerged(8390)

First Lieutenant
Mar 23, 2002
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Really? I will have to look into that - its definately something that should be fixed. Maybe they just aren't listed in the abreviations for the tech commands?? (but probably something paradox would have to fix - no biggy though, militia are the least of my concerns)
 

unmerged(2716)

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Apr 6, 2001
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Graycloak,

Just looked over your numbers and compared them to default, so a couple comments in no particular order.

*Why do militia consume no supplies? It seems that they at least need to be fed, if not clothed. What do you think about 0.4 for militia and 0.6 for paratroopers?

*I like that you slowed down the marines to move as fast as regular infantry, but I still dont't quite know what to think about the mountaineers. On a strategic scale they probably should'nt be any faster than other leg infantry, but on an operational scale they were quicker and more nimble and I've liked having that reflected by a modest speed improvement. Also they were undeniably quicker than any other leg infantry in difficult terrain which I've also liked having reflected in a modest speed improvement. I suspect you slowed down the mountaineers and marines to reflect the fact that, like regular infantry, they were still carrying heavy equipment w/ limited motorized transport. While I see the merit in such thinking, my inclination is to still give the mountaineers a speed of 4 but limit the rest of the leg infantry to a speed of 3.

*All the changes to the cavalry make a lot of sense. I sometimes entertain the idea of improving their soft attack to three to reflect their greater operational maneuverability in battle, but not enough to actually recommend it.

*I'm curious to see if ground battles between infantry are significantly bloodier with your changes that keep the ground defense at three and improve the soft attack to two.

*Your changes to transport weight make sense, but I don't really know what impact that has in the game.

Keep up the good work. This looks to be a very interesting thread and I look forward to seeing your ideas about altering the effects of the techs and doctrines.
 

unmerged(8390)

First Lieutenant
Mar 23, 2002
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The supply change for militia is largely for gameplay reasons. Even with only a .4 supply requirement for militia, countries like china and many many of the poorer ones can end up crippling their economy trying to provide supplies for militia. It also means that all the poorer countries with no functioning economy won't end up with 0 org militia. (Like Mongolia does in every game - it'll also allow isolated militia island garrisons to last longer)
Militia is so limited that even in multi-player I don't see having it be free of supply cost would allow some all-conquering militia horde.

As for Mountaineers, I need to do some experimenting - I think there are ways to make them move faster in mountains (and maybe other terrains) without upping their base speed.
I also need to come up with a way to SLOW down arm/mech/motorized units on amphib invasions - blitzing off the transports just seems very wrong....


PS - Still working on the tech changes, but its rather time consuming..taking me forever just to get it into a spreadsheet format so I can understand what I am doing to it ;-)
 
Dec 18, 2002
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Just an idea about a possible way to create unit models for only one nation :

create tech with 0% chance and 1 IC cost. Give this tech to the nation you want. others can't obtain it and the cost is reduced for that...
Then other techs would cost the same but it would suffice to add the impossible tech to get as prerequisite to give only to the desired nation the tech. Let's imagine: one tech given to Japan and a tech permitting vey big Battleship with this 0% tech as prerequisite... or a tech for creating special German Panzer division : should work