The alt-history scenarios in this game are fantasy scenarios, where is the actual alt-history

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Simon Marques

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An alternative history is, not only in essence, but in every imagineable aspect, exactly the same as fantasy.

Your request therefore is logically faulty.

However, it seems that what you really ask for is an increased variety amongst the minor variables in the game. And if that truly is what you request, then I wholeheartedly supports it.

This is as relative as the universe, we don't know if there really is only one reality or if there are several in parallel to each other, so I don't know if it should be called fantasy either. Let's consider that these are possibilities that could happen or that actually happened. :p
 
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kettyo

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Again, off topic, but 90% of US terror deaths since 2001 were not islamistic, but far right terror. Similar figures are to be found for Germany, norway, and many other countries (France and Spain being maybe the most notable exceptions).
Just as a hint that media skewers our perception of threats.

Again, let's leave it here. This point probably leads nowhere.
Just to say: ideas inform actions. Wrong ideas sometimes catastrophic ones.

I think the charts of @Fulmen have put islamism in the West into perspective very well.

But you don't have to forget that islamism take even orders of magnitude more victims in the Middle East - where far-right is an absolute no-player outside of Israel - and it even take more victims in Africa than in the West just it isn't so newsworthy.
 

kettyo

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Speaking of extremism, the future of the world is fascism, this ideology will dominate the scene once again, like a wolf in sheep's clothing, they will speak of peace, a kind of environmental activism with the purpose of uniting the nations of the world for a supposed common good(In this case it is theirs, the fascists dressed as priests of peace and little blond Swedish girls, not ours). As a result the world will fall into the graces of a hidden fascism.

I don't know about the future but it seems very sure that in case fascism will be resurgent it will be vastly different from pre-globalisation fascism in the 1930's as globalisation has created a fundamentally different landscape. There is a less-known futuristic movie called Daybreak from 1993, it envisions such a scenario very well i think.

Edit.: Also Equilibrium from 2002 is very good but that's more like a blend of fascism and theocracy and rather post-apocalyptic than post-globalisation.
 
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kettyo

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Back to topic i'd be glad if there would be three game options instead of the current two.

Historical as it is now.

Plausible ahistorical without forcing the AI to go down a specific focus order but denying major political shifts for AI and player alike.

And ahistorical fantasy with everything in play just like current ahistorical.
 

Arilou

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Napoleon in France and Byzantine Empire is simply not within the purview of any historical possibility at the time when this game exists, they all are nothing but just fantasy and can be easily replaced with Jon Snow teleporting himself to this world and becoming king of France, it won't change anything.

In the meantime, the actual alt-history the things that could have happened in ww2 is so underutilized and represented, the actual what-ifs. Like what if western allies went through operation pike? what if July 20 plot succeded. What if khalkin gol resulted in full-scale war? what if western allies and USSR formed an alliance against Germany? And so many other actually interesting ww2 what-ifs that are lacking in the game. Surely for a ww2 based games, these should be a focus on plausible alt-history scenarios than frankly fantasy scenarios like the Austria-Hungary empire.

To get away from the thread drift: A lot of WWII "alt history" tends to be things that don't really require any particular thing since it is covered (whether or not it's covered well or not is a different matter...) by the regular game mechanics. There is no need to have a "What if no Stalingrad?" pack since most games will never have a Stalingrad (simply because the decisive battle, if there is one, will happen somewhere else, or under completely different circumstances becuase you're not following the german decisionmaking exactly)
 
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Jimmyfeellucky

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Actual alternative history can only be done justice through many theoretical researches with most historian approval. That will take a very long time and cost money just to make a focus tree. And most of the focus tree will do basically nothing. Therefore, It's easier to cure Greece's debt in 3-4 focuses than waste the entire game time drowning in debt "historically".
 
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Stug_Life

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Fantasy is a lot of fun and tends to drive sales. I remember when Waking the Tiger was in production and where they thought we would be mostly talking about China's reworks. Instead, most people talked about how exciting it was that they can reinstate the kaiser. It makes them money so they go with it. I do not mind their current path of adding historical and fantasy elements.
 
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Iskulya

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It's an age old problem.

A lot of people complaining about the lack of plausibility in the focus trees don't really offer real alternatives. Usually we see things floated like "What if the British were defeated at Dunkirk?" or "What if Operation X succeeded?" This kind of thing doesn't really need any kind of scripted representation at all. The effect of those things happening is already represented through the destruction of assets, etc.

I think there is a real criticism to be made that a lot of the countries don't have focus trees that really reflect the complexity of their situation in 1936, notably the United States which has an extremely lackluster set of focuses for historical and semi-historical routes. I think this can also be said of Japan, and perhaps Germany. While Germany's focus tree is "good" in the sense that it works, it doesn't really offer a range of choices for more plausible alternatives, or at least not as much as it could.

Some of the newer focus trees have improved in this regard, like Portugal where the Salazar dictatorship can choose to join the Axis or the Allies. We also seem to see this with the newly revealed focus trees for the upcoming DLCs.

For Germany I think there were a lot of missed opportunities. There are some good ideas in the abstract, like the ability to angle for an alliance with Poland although it is poorly represented. There really is no modelling of the circumstances in which the Poles might feel that it's an acceptable offer or the ramifications this has in Germany itself. It feels like a missed opportunity that Paradox did not incorporate the tension between the Nazi political leadership and the military leadership. It could have been interesting if the balance of power was modeled in which asserting the Nazi Party's supremacy over the military had real ramifications towards military preparedness and competency, but gave you more diplomatic freedom in being aggressive and taking risky moves, or you could choose to respect the military's position and avoid the issues that arose with Hitler's meddling in purely military matters but at the cost of being more constrained diplomatically. It could have lead to different ways of the war beginning and unfolding.

That's just an example. I don't even think the above is truly plausible, but it's more plausible than a monarchist civil war or some of the other things we see in the game. Then again, if we were focused purely on historical plausibility in most cases there actually would be no room for choice in the first place. Things usually happened the way they did for a reason and in most cases things could not have happened another way. There are exceptions, but not many. I think this thread and many like it tend to become derailed by discussions of history that are at best tangential to the game. I can understand that; most of us around here really enjoy reading about and discussing history

I don't really have a problem with sillier ahistorical stuff as long as it's optional and doesn't come at the epxense of the more historical and semi-historical options. In some cases as with the US and Japan we see that the fantasy stuff came directly at the expense of historical content, while with others like Germany this was less the case.

It will be interesting to see what they do with the Soviet Union. I have to admit I'm worried it will turn out like the French rework with everything under the sun being represented but very little of it being fleshed out in any meaningful way.

Focus trees and alternative history stuff seems to work best when the design philosophy incorporates some restraints and a paradigm to build content around. When a focus tree tries to be all things to all people, it usually ends up feeling unfocused, generic, and not particularly fun. Again, I think that's partly what made the German rework's alternate history content so good: they designed the content around the constraint that Germany must always be hostile to the Soviet Union. In contrast, the US seems to offer fascist and communist options for no reason other than for it to be there, and it feels uninspired and boring as a result. Ditto with Japan's communist and democratic content.
 
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Ivashanko

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"Pretty strong racial views" is a weird case of understatement.
Are you making the case that the Nazis weren't really racists? I have to ask because your statement is really puzzling.
Hitler declaring war on the US was just acknowledging facts. The US were as much an enemy nation as the British, but he saw it as a way to actually be able to fight them.
Also, his worldview had the American capitalists lumped together with Bolsheviks because...well, Jewry.

The Al Husseini thing is overstated, there was minimal contact between the two.
"Many non white people served in the Wehrmacht" - citation needed. Apart from legion freies Arabien, a few token prisoner Indians in the SS, and some Transcaucasian volounteers in less than regimental strength, everyone else in the Nazi forces was European. In fact, their policies prohibited some whites from joining, like russian volounteers.

I am sorry, but you do not know a lot about the topic.

In the eyes of the Nazi Germans (and various groups today) Slavs are not white.

I agree with the rest of your analysis.
 
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Zauberelefant

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In the eyes of the Germans (and various groups today) Slavs are not white.

I agree with the rest of your analysis.
True, but that underscores the insanity of the race concept. It's just made up and has literally no substance. The Nazis had race "science" and concluded that some white people are not white....
I mean, really?!
 
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Ivashanko

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This is both seriously off and seriously false.

I'm out of my house and on my phone, so I'll just quickly post WIki. If you're still interested I try to write a longer post tomorrow.


Look under the following sections:

Subhumans: Romani, Slavs and Jews

Subhumans: Poles
 
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Zauberelefant

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This is both seriously off and seriously false.
Well, if you put it like this, then, no. It's not OT because it would inform alternative history approaches.
And it's not false either, because Nazis decided that people of the same race aren't.
The justification was... dubious. In the end, it wasn't genetics, but everyone in the Slav language group was deemed inferior, while the romanic speaking people were cool. Also, Croats were OK, blond poles were OK, but Russians weren't.

It doesn't make sense.
 
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Ivashanko

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True, but that underscores the insanity of the race concept. It's just made up and has literally no substance. The Nazis had race "science" and concluded that some white people are not white....
I mean, really?!

Race is a sociological concept completely divorced from scientific anything. Most people who haven't lived in many parts of the world do not realise that their views of racial categories are not shared by billions of other people in other parts of the world.

I have lived in a place where Portuguese people were considered their own, not-white, racial group. Calling a Portuguese person 'white' was extremely offensive. And that isn't even the craziest racial category I've seen. Racial Ideology is many things. Logical is not one of them.
 
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kettyo

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True, but that underscores the insanity of the race concept. It's just made up and has literally no substance. The Nazis had race "science" and concluded that some white people are not white....
I mean, really?!

Again this is very off but the nazis didn't give a single damn about somebody being white or not. E.g. they have considered Iranians, a generally darker skinned group of people southern Aryans and considered them full Aryan while they have considered Eastern Slavs, one of the major groups of white caucasians as untermensch.

This made them novel that their racism didn't really have anything in common with what was known before and probably also to what was coming after them.

But again this is wildly off and has got nothing with the game...
 

Fulmen

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Then again, if we were focused purely on historical plausibility in most cases there actually would be no room for choice in the first place. Things usually happened the way they did for a reason and in most cases things could not have happened another way.

This. Heck, there are scientists who believe that our choices are all determined by our genes and experiences, and that free will is only an illusion. Now, I'm not quite that fatalistic, but it is difficult for me to see how history could have happened in any other way, especially when really thinking into it. X made Y decision because of a million reasons, and those reasons existed because of a billion other reasons that came before, and so on. The same applies to incidents that seem like bad luck: a grenade that killed a soldier landed in that precise spot because of countless tiny reasons that are unchangeable because of the reasons that preceded them. To quote ASoIaF/GoT: "The past is already written, the ink is dry.". The only way to "plausibly" change history would be to quite literally travel back in time.

But it is fun to talk about and speculate.
 
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Somehow, a thread on alt-history has gone massively off topic, posts continue to be about topics related to racial classification and the historicity of slave labor in ancient Egypt, and other things that make no sense in the HOI4 forum.

I'm going to close this thread, as it is not longer serving its intended purpose, or any other relevant HOI4 purpose for that matter.
 
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