The alt-history scenarios in this game are fantasy scenarios, where is the actual alt-history

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Zauberelefant

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That's how you like to play him.

But all players shouldn't be forced to mirror the complete mindsets of leaders i think as it would just make the game more boring for no good reason.

Let's say i'd like to play a more cautious and more diplomatic Germany. That's certainly far from historical - much more like bismarckish than hitlerish - but why should i be denied in doing so? And yeah i wouldn't like civil war and other complications coming with a major political shift.

Additionally there's not much mechanism in the game to replace leaders within the same ideology so you're forced to stay with Hitler in this case. You can't switch to let's say Göbbels. Or can't switch to let's say Berija from Stalin (yet).

If my words about roleplaying have confused you then excuse me, i've meant roleplaying yourself, not the historical Hitler in which case you might be right although i seriously doubt if many people would like to do that over and over again.
Agreed. But then again, the game should not blurr the line between an atrocious regime like NS or Stalinism and paternal autocrats or socialist populist autocrats. That is my fear.
A cautious NS Germany wouldn't be NS Germany, 8if you catch my Drift.
 
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kettyo

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Agreed. But then again, the game should not blurr the line between an atrocious regime like NS or Stalinism and paternal autocrats or socialist populist autocrats. That is my fear.
A cautious NS Germany wouldn't be NS Germany, 8if you catch my Drift.

I understand your concern but getting people to know what is what should be the job of schools and educative programs, not a video game i guess :)
 

Zauberelefant

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I understand your concern but getting people to know what is what should be the job of schools and educative programs, not a video game i guess :)
Yeah, unfortunately, this world's creator was sloppy and this isn't a perfect world.
I am merely voicing an opinion here, but with a perceived resurgence of NS whitewashing globally and right wing sentiment on the rise, I think that a video game that reinforces wrong ideas is not needed.
Let's leave it at that. After all, you're right, it's just a video game.
 
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Simon Marques

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Yeah, unfortunately, this world's creator was sloppy and this isn't a perfect world.
I am merely voicing an opinion here, but with a perceived resurgence of NS whitewashing globally and right wing sentiment on the rise, I think that a video game that reinforces wrong ideas is not needed.
Let's leave it at that. After all, you're right, it's just a video game.

If you referred to the planet and human civilization, you can't blame the Creator for that, because it wasn't the Creator who created this world the way it is today. If the world is imperfect, it is humanity's own fault, because it is we who foment death, hunger, disease, wars and all other misfortunes.

The creator established a code that defines mental sanity: Do not murder, do not steal, do not lie, do not destroy, etc. Humanity practices the opposite of this, therefore the blame for the imperfection of the world if this is the case cannot be the Creator.

Blaming the Creator is the same as blaming the mother for her room being a mess. Before you were born your mother and father built your room that did not exist yet, decorated it and filled it with several stuffed animals and left everything very well organized, times later, you were born. She cleaned your room until you were adult enough to do it by yourself, but once you became adult, you turned your room upside down, destroyed even the stuffed animals your mother put there for you to play with, and then blamed your mother for all this. This current scenario only proves how our species is heading in the opposite direction of the Creator's original proposal, we are heading towards insanity.

And the worst thing is to hear people saying that humanity is evolving. Humanity is not evolving, it has never been, it is actually suffering an involution since it became adult.
 
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kettyo

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The creator established a code that defines mental sanity: Do not murder, do not steal, do not lie, do not destroy, etc. Humanity practices the opposite of this, therefore the blame for the imperfection of the world if this is the case cannot be the Creator.

It's a bit more unclear as e.g. the Creator has massacred thousands of ancient Egyptian children according to the Torah / Old Testament. :)

It's certainly off so excuse me about it.
 
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kettyo

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Yeah, unfortunately, this world's creator was sloppy and this isn't a perfect world.
I am merely voicing an opinion here, but with a perceived resurgence of NS whitewashing globally and right wing sentiment on the rise, I think that a video game that reinforces wrong ideas is not needed.
Let's leave it at that. After all, you're right, it's just a video game.

Yeah i understand your point but with all probability video games have very little to do with the rise of extremism i think. It's much more i think about more and more people feeling they don't really fit into the mainstream world for whatever reasons and start looking for alternative alignment points.

Let's look at e.g. islamism, probably the biggest extremist direction nowadays. The role in video games in that is probably negligible. Much more like the fact that secular Middle Eastern autocracies started to collapse for multiple reasons, people started looking for alternatives and they've found the next biggest alternative to secularism. The same with people living in the West, many of them felt they just won't fit in a consumerist world and found the strongest alternative which in their case was islamism.

I think it's very similar mechanically with other extremisms too. So you always have to ask WHY these people feel themselves unfit for this world or in reverse the world unfit for them? As if they feel so they'll find some extremism for themselves eventually let it be some form of religious fanatism, communism, liberal marxism, fascism, racial supremacism, whatever.

But again it's very off so excuse me once more :)
 

Simon Marques

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It's a bit more unclear as e.g. the Creator has massacred thousands of ancient Egyptian children according to the Torah / Old Testament. :)

It's certainly off so excuse me about it.

Exactly, he had many reasons to do it;

1 - This did not happen without previous warning and without a condition, "free the people, let them go in peace and your country will be spared".

2 - Some years before this happened, the Egyptians had massacred thousands of Hebrew children by throwing them to the Nile crocodiles.

3 - The Egyptians were practicing inhumane acts against the Hebrew people, like practicing a style of slavery that was not tolerable.

But I don't think it's right to discuss it here, it must be against the rules to talk about it.
 
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Zauberelefant

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Exactly, he had many reasons to do it;

1 - This did not happen without previous warning and without a condition, "free the people, let them go in peace and your country will be spared".

2 - Some years before this happened, the Egyptians had massacred thousands of Hebrew children by throwing them to the Nile crocodiles.

3 - The Egyptians were practicing inhumane acts against the Hebrew people, like practicing a style of slavery that was not tolerable.

But I don't think it's right to discuss it here, it must be against the rules to talk about it.
Especially since there never were hebrew slaves in egypt, Moses is a hebrew Version of Osiris, the 10 commandments are very questionable as "superior" moral guidelines and nothing of this has to do with alt history in hoi4.
 

Zauberelefant

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Yeah i understand your point but with all probability video games have very little to do with the rise of extremism i think. It's much more i think about more and more people feeling they don't really fit into the mainstream world for whatever reasons and start looking for alternative alignment points.

Let's look at e.g. islamism, probably the biggest extremist direction nowadays. The role in video games in that is probably negligible. Much more like the fact that secular Middle Eastern autocracies started to collapse for multiple reasons, people started looking for alternatives and they've found the next biggest alternative to secularism. The same with people living in the West, many of them felt they just won't fit in a consumerist world and found the strongest alternative which in their case was islamism.

I think it's very similar mechanically with other extremisms too. So you always have to ask WHY these people feel themselves unfit for this world or in reverse the world unfit for them? As if they feel so they'll find some extremism for themselves eventually let it be some form of religious fanatism, communism, liberal marxism, fascism, racial supremacism, whatever.

But again it's very off so excuse me once more :)
Again, off topic, but 90% of US terror deaths since 2001 were not islamistic, but far right terror. Similar figures are to be found for Germany, norway, and many other countries (France and Spain being maybe the most notable exceptions).
Just as a hint that media skewers our perception of threats.

Again, let's leave it here. This point probably leads nowhere.
Just to say: ideas inform actions. Wrong ideas sometimes catastrophic ones.
 
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Simon Marques

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Yeah i understand your point but with all probability video games have very little to do with the rise of extremism i think. It's much more i think about more and more people feeling they don't really fit into the mainstream world for whatever reasons and start looking for alternative alignment points.

Let's look at e.g. islamism, probably the biggest extremist direction nowadays. The role in video games in that is probably negligible. Much more like the fact that secular Middle Eastern autocracies started to collapse for multiple reasons, people started looking for alternatives and they've found the next biggest alternative to secularism. The same with people living in the West, many of them felt they just won't fit in a consumerist world and found the strongest alternative which in their case was islamism.

I think it's very similar mechanically with other extremisms too. So you always have to ask WHY these people feel themselves unfit for this world or in reverse the world unfit for them? As if they feel so they'll find some extremism for themselves eventually let it be some form of religious fanatism, communism, liberal marxism, fascism, racial supremacism, whatever.

But again it's very off so excuse me once more :)

Speaking of extremism, the future of the world is fascism, this ideology will dominate the scene once again, like a wolf in sheep's clothing, they will speak of peace, a kind of environmental activism with the purpose of uniting the nations of the world for a supposed common good(In this case it is theirs, the fascists dressed as priests of peace and little blond Swedish girls, not ours). As a result the world will fall into the graces of a hidden fascism.

You can't relativize the sovereignty of a nation without a good reason and fascists are experts at that. The speech today is: "We need to preserve the Amazon, they are destroying the lungs of the world". Just look at the case of that very kind North American, who proposed the creation of an ecological preservation corridor(I think I've heard this word somewhere else and some other time, was it a "Corridor"? "Polish"? no, it must be just my imagination), passing mainly through the Brazilian, Colombian, Venezuelan Amazon. So he basically proposes that Brazil, Venezuela, Colombia and others give up extensive parts of their territory for a supposedly greater good(which is certainly not that of South Americans).

This is basically how modern fascists act, especially one that I have the displeasure of being a compatriot(He sits on a throne in Rome as a Roman emperor). Fascism is a word relative to the Latin term "Fascis", it has everything to do with Rome, the Roman Empire was fascist for example, it is the power and total control of the state over everything and everyone, and the ancient European kingdoms that were greatly influenced by Roman culture, many nations imitated the Roman state system, love to display a Great Eagle on their coats of arms, flags and national symbols.

Another great purpose of fascism is also to recreate the Roman empire and they will succeed sooner or later. Besides being governed by good fascist systems dressed as democrats, the Europeans and some other world powers are excellent ecologists, their history of environmental preservation makes them the best on the subject, they have preserved their forests very well, especially the French. Nobody better than Europeans to talk about environmental preservation, they have devastated about 99.7% of their original forests and now want to teach the South Americans how to preserve the Amazon forest that is practically intact for 500 years.

Where did all this wood go? Oh, it must have been in the countless wooden ships built between the 15th and 19th centuries, after all, you couldn't cross the oceans swimming. How do you think the Europeans arrived in America? It certainly wasn't mounted on a dromedary.

Look on the bright side, they destroyed their forests and woods for the common good(which certainly was not that of the Indians either). The North American activists are the best humorists of all, after all, they, the North Americans, were the ones who most preserved Indian tribes. There must be one Indian for every 10 people in the United States (only if it's at Disneyland, all pale face actors with their skin painted red).
 
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Simon Marques

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Especially since there never were hebrew slaves in egypt, Moses is a hebrew Version of Osiris, the 10 commandments are very questionable as "superior" moral guidelines and nothing of this has to do with alt history in hoi4.

This is what you are assuming is and not reality, archaeology has proven that people like you could not be more wrong.
 
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Zauberelefant

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This is what you are assuming is and not reality, archaeology has proven that people like you could not be more wrong.
Oh, now I would be very keen to see the archeological proof (funny word to use in that context) for the nation of hebrew slaves that goes back to 12 brothers, one of which was advisor to Pharao.
And what exactly are "people like me"?
 

Simon Marques

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Oh, now I would be very keen to see the archeological proof (funny word to use in that context) for the nation of hebrew slaves that goes back to 12 brothers, one of which was advisor to Pharao.
And what exactly are "people like me"?

Try the "Ipuwer Papyrus", a copy dated from the XIII century BC of a probably older original writing. You can visit this artifact in the library of Leiden University in the Netherlands.

Who do not believe the historical accounts contained in the Bible, are usually anti-Semitic atheists, I am not saying that this is their case, but it is also a characteristic of fascists, who are naturally anti-Semitic by nature. Yes there is evidence and archaeological evidence, but it does not come to the case, it is not the theme and I have deviate from the subject so much, I would not be surprised if a moderator close this thread.
 
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ClavintheGreat

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It is not the theme and I have deviate from the subject so much, I would not be surprised if a moderator close this thread.

Again, off topic...

....Again, let's leave it here. This point probably leads nowhere.

Hear me out: Just stop posting about stuff that isn't related to the topic and we will be able to discuss the op's topic at length for over a few pages without the mods closing the page. Big brain move.
 
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Who do not believe the historical accounts contained in the Bible, are usually anti-Semitic atheists, I am not saying that this is their case, but it is also a characteristic of fascists, who are naturally anti-Semitic by nature. Yes there is evidence and archaeological evidence, but it does not come to the case, it is not the theme and I have deviate from the subject so much, I would not be surprised if a moderator close this thread.
Well, this is a change of pace. Usually threads on this forum devolve into bickering about the finer points of some eastern front tank or battle 12 pages in.
 
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Simon Marques

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Hear me out: Just stop posting about stuff that isn't related to the topic and we will be able to discuss the op's topic at length for over a few pages without the mods closing the page. Big brain move.

If you pay attention you will realize that it wasn't necessarily my fault, someone mentioned a point that I found interesting to comment on and I simply quoted and commented. My apologies for this.
 
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Fulmen

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Again, off topic, but 90% of US terror deaths since 2001 were not islamistic, but far right terror. Similar figures are to be found for Germany, norway, and many other countries (France and Spain being maybe the most notable exceptions).

Not according to the Global Terrorism Database:

START_TerroristAttacksDeathsinUSbyIdeology_Charts_Nov2017.png
Terrorism-in-Western-Europe-768x1425.png

See also: https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-excluding-outlier-attacks

EDIT: In addition to the numbers above, I'd also make the case that in certain countries certain religiously-motivated acts of terrorism with fatality rates of "only" a single person are not logged as terrorism, where as their far-right equivalents are. But I digress, if you want to discuss this further, please use PMs as I don't want to derail this thread beyond this post. I only replied to your OT comment because it stuck out to me as false, and by a large margin.
 
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Prince Ire

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Restoring the Habsburg monarchy in Austria or Hungary is perfectly plausible (Hungary less so than Austria, but still within the realm of possibility). Restoring the empire as a whole in 1936 isn't, but its kind of necessary for the scenario to have any purpose whatsoever. If you don't have a chance to expand or otherwise do something while playing the game, what's the point?
 

Hokiko

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An alternative history is, not only in essence, but in every imagineable aspect, exactly the same as fantasy.

Your request therefore is logically faulty.

However, it seems that what you really ask for is an increased variety amongst the minor variables in the game. And if that truly is what you request, then I wholeheartedly supports it.
 
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Dalnar

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For me, "alternative history" in the scope of ww2 means that during the crucial moments, something else happened, like japs not attacking pearl harbour, germans wiping up dunkirk, czechoslovakia refusing munich etc. That's interesting alt history to me. Restoring monarchies and completely changing the course of country within 1-2 years feels like pure nonsense to me. But I guess customers vote with wallets and there is demand for it.
 
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