The alt-history scenarios in this game are fantasy scenarios, where is the actual alt-history

[1 Star General]

Well. It *has* been tried. By the german army. Paratroop landings near The Hague tried to capture the dutch government in 1940.

But the result was exactly as you describe. Utter failure for the german paratroopers.

Well - apparently I misspoke Thank you for pointing that out. But Hague would hardly be comparable to London (size), wasn't the capital, besides as far as I remember, they landed outside the city, in a very small country, as an avangard of an ongoing land invasion and capturing the government wasn't the primary objective (I thought it was about the airfields, wasn't it?). That's a bit different case, hope we can agree on that

 

[jpd]

Well - apparently I misspoke Thank you for pointing that out. But Hague would hardly be comparable to London (size), wasn't the capital, besides as far as I remember, they landed outside the city, in a very small country, as an avangard of an ongoing land invasion and capturing the government wasn't the primary objective (I thought it was about the airfields, wasn't it?). That's a bit different case, hope we can agree on that

You're correct in that The Hague wasn't, and still isn't the capital. But it is the city where the government is located. As for the air field. It's as outside of the city as london city airport is outside of london.

The Hague is (and was back in 1940) a city within a larger buildup area. The Hague, Rijswijk, Zoetermeer, Rotterdam, Delft, Dordrecht, Zwijndrecht, Barendrecht, it's one big area. It's what we call the Randstad.

 

[BeauNiddle]

They would have had their psychological effect, perhaps too many underestimate the psychological effect. Having Germans at home, bypassing your "maginot" is devastating especially in a UK with no (or almost) defenses. In case of lasting resistance would they lose? Yes. But in the event of a governmental debacle "Oh my God the Germans have landed" who panic like the French who bypass the maginot from the ardennes would send the entire military command into chaos that would hardly understand what to do. already a landing near a port and a bigger one in London would already make Churchill and the king sweat cold. Especially if during the chaos one of the two (or both) is captured and / or killed!The psychological factor is very important: Example Crassus lost because he lost his son, fell into depression and then commanded badly. The psychological factor of the head of state can lead to triumph or ruin a nation. Panicking because the enemy is at the gates and giving wrong (or contradictory) orders leads to defeat against numerically small armies.Imagine if a group of paratroopers surround Downing street 10 or Buckingpalace. In any case, with the capture of the two members of the "government", forced negotiations are entered into or it all ends in a bloodbath and the loss of one of them, it would in any case be an enormous show of strength for Germany. Please do not underestimate the pshycological effect as I have often seen done on the forum.

Amusing side note (story from a TV show so take with a pinch of salt)

The UK was the only country to prepare a resistance movement before they were invaded. They asked the local constable (police officer) of small villages to nominate a group of lads for combat training. These forces were trained in resistance combat and sabotage and were send back to their villages with written instructions, to stay sealed until the country was invaded. Obviously these got opened (whether at the time or after the war was not made clear) and the first official order of the UK resistance forces was ... to kill the police officer who nominated them for training. He was the only person outside the group who knew all their identities so he had to be the first to die.


Also amusing - once C4 was invented and moved into production the first blocks of it weren't used by the military - they were sent to the potential resistance members for use in sabotage. They ended up sitting in peoples garages.


The leaders of the country had made plans for the worst case, and while seeing Germans in the street would have been shocking it wouldn't have caused a mindless panic. I believe the plan was for as many leaders as possible to be smuggled out and to continue the war from Canada.

 

[sekelsenmat]

The question becomes: so how do you land in the UK? do you send a single man to kill churchill to cause despair in the enemy government? The problem is not how to land on hoi4. The question is how would the real germany land? In another post (on CK3) it was found that the fact that the UK has never been invaded since 1066 is false because it has undergone several successful marine invasions. The question is: how is it done?

You mean in the real world how someone would invade the UK by sea?

Trivial, it is the exact same problem that D-Day was facing, there is no difference between the two. You need:
1 -> Overwhelming naval superiority. You position big ships and scout planes and they bombard everything within 50 kms of the coast. This prevents any enemy armoured formation from defending the coast.
2 -> Overwhelming air superiority. You bomb the enemy non-stop so they can only move at night for example.
3 -> Lot's of troops ready to land. Lot's of cargo ships to supply them.

And done.

If the USA somehow had a fascist government they would have no trouble using France as a springboard to invade the UK.

Germany simply lacked the needed air and naval forces.

 

[Vlad123]

Amusing side note (story from a TV show so take with a pinch of salt)

The UK was the only country to prepare a resistance movement before they were invaded. They asked the local constable (police officer) of small villages to nominate a group of lads for combat training. These forces were trained in resistance combat and sabotage and were send back to their villages with written instructions, to stay sealed until the country was invaded. Obviously these got opened (whether at the time or after the war was not made clear) and the first official order of the UK resistance forces was ... to kill the police officer who nominated them for training. He was the only person outside the group who knew all their identities so he had to be the first to die.


Also amusing - once C4 was invented and moved into production the first blocks of it weren't used by the military - they were sent to the potential resistance members for use in sabotage. They ended up sitting in peoples garages.


The leaders of the country had made plans for the worst case, and while seeing Germans in the street would have been shocking it wouldn't have caused a mindless panic. I believe the plan was for as many leaders as possible to be smuggled out and to continue the war from Canada.

Ah, yes I remember ... but it must be said that being invaded, when you are an island. It ALWAYS remains a shock! Maybe not as strong as I thought but it remains the same. Then it depends on whether the king / churchill manages to escape. If Chamberlaine continues the war I think the UK can automatically make peace. Losing the island must be terrible. Because the US would no longer have a bridgehead (the UK) to attack the "European fortress". In addition, for the Germans everything becomes more peaceful: No hostile forces that finance the partisans with air launches (especially in France), the UK industries were all (look a little) right in the UK ... no one bombards you anymore industries, no problem having to keep huge forces in northern france ... that is, everything becomes easier for the Germans, both if the UK surrenders / is kicked out of the home island, and if with a stroke of luck they would have entered, as planned , in moscow and stalingrad.

 

[Vlad123]

You mean in the real world how someone would invade the UK by sea?

Trivial, it is the exact same problem that D-Day was facing, there is no difference between the two. You need:
1 -> Overwhelming naval superiority. You position big ships and scout planes and they bombard everything within 50 kms of the coast. This prevents any enemy armoured formation from defending the coast.
2 -> Overwhelming air superiority. You bomb the enemy non-stop so they can only move at night for example.
3 -> Lot's of troops ready to land. Lot's of cargo ships to supply them.

And done.

If the USA somehow had a fascist government they would have no trouble using France as a springboard to invade the UK.

Germany simply lacked the needed air and naval forces.

Basically, was the help of the Italian fleet also needed?

 

[sekelsenmat]

Basically, was the help of the Italian fleet also needed?

The italian fleet vs the british fleet is stuff like this:

Battle of the Duisburg Convoy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Battle of Cape Spada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If for some miracle the Japanese would move all their fleet and air force to the Channel region in a huge gambit to help a sea lion .... now that would have been something which could have worked.

 

[kettyo]

The italian fleet vs the british fleet is stuff like this:

Battle of the Duisburg Convoy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Battle of Cape Spada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If for some miracle the Japanese would move all their fleet and air force to the Channel region in a huge gambit to help a sea lion .... now that would have been something which could have worked.

The Italian fleet was quite obsolete but still can be used for screening and patrols in case of a theoretical operation Seelöwe.

 

[Vlad123]

I want to remind you that the Italian fleet was the third or fourth fleet in the world for "shipping" (total weight) over 600k tons, so not really toys.

 

[kettyo]

I want to remind you that the Italian fleet was the third or fourth fleet in the world for "shipping" (total weight) over 600k tons, so not really toys.

Very obsolete though so not really fit for combat against the Royal Navy or US Navy but it's okay for screening or patrolling purposes i think.

 

[Simon Marques]

It's based on the general war situation in May 1940 after encircling the Dunkerque pocket but more knowledgeable people than myself here can certainly cite sources as well. Most of my sources are non-English so wouldn't help.

It would be interesting to hear about this from German sources, some report that could confirm the existence of this concern within the command of the German armed forces. This would be very helpful.

Well. It *has* been tried. By the german army. Paratroop landings near The Hague tried to capture the dutch government in 1940.

But the result was exactly as you describe. Utter failure for the german paratroopers.

During Operation Mercury on May 20, 1941, about 30,000 soldiers were thrown in for falls of which about 14,000 were Fallschirmjäger and another 15,000 special mountaineering troops.

Despite the success in conquering the island, the Germans would lose some 7,000 elite soldiers, extremely experienced, this high number of casualties was probably what motivated the German High Command to no longer use paratroopers on a large scale.

 

[1 Star General]

It would be interesting to hear about this from German sources, some report that could confirm the existence of this concern within the command of the German armed forces. This would be very helpful.


View attachment 626167

During Operation Mercury on May 20, 1941, about 30,000 soldiers were thrown in for falls of which about 14,000 were Fallschirmjäger and another 15,000 special mountaineering troops.

Despite the success in conquering the island, the Germans would lose some 7,000 elite soldiers, extremely experienced, this high number of casualties was probably what motivated the German High Command to no longer use paratroopers on a large scale.

Thank you for reminding us of invasion of Crete, but I think we were talking of airborne attack on capital cities in Europe, not islands in the Mediterranean

 

[Simon Marques]

I want to remind you that the Italian fleet was the third or fourth fleet in the world for "shipping" (total weight) over 600k tons, so not really toys.

Italian ships were focused on long-range shots, much superior to those of the British navy, but the Italians forgot to develop means to detect ships before they were detected, that is, radars and rangefinders that could find enemies and accurately determine their location.

As a result, the ships had excellent firepower and range, but were completely blinded at long distances, which basically rendered useless all this range that their cannons had. The British did not have the same range, but had invested heavily in these technologies that the Italians despised.

Besides not having radars and rangefinders, they(the italian ships) were very fast ships which means that their armor was considerably deficient.

 

[Vlad123]

Italian ships were focused on long-range shots, much superior to those of the British navy, but the Italians forgot to develop means to detect ships before they were detected, that is, radars and rangefinders that could find enemies and accurately determine their location.

As a result, the ships had excellent firepower and range, but were completely blinded at long distances, which basically rendered useless all this range that their cannons had. The British did not have the same range, but had invested heavily in these technologies that the Italians despised.

Besides not having radars and rangefinders, they were very fast ships which means that their armor was considerably deficient.

The Italians did not despise the radar, on the contrary the preparatory technologies to make it, they got there even earlier (in 34/35 if I remember correctly) Unfortunately, the scientist in charge of the project died and nobody carried out his research. Italy before the war lost a lot of valid scientists (Enrico fermi, Ettore Majorana etc) because they either died, or went to other countries (fermi had a Jewish wife and went away due to the racial laws) therefore due to this death / transfer of scientists Italy was crippled (imagine eliminating in the middle of the Turing war, as soon as the Germans improve the enigma and a new meacchina is needed to decode the British they are screwed!)

 

[Magnificent Genius]

Every time this "stop with the meme-y alt-history, it's a waste of time/resources" topic comes up, I really wish people would actually listen when it is pointed out that it is very much not a waste, because *it moves units*. There was a dev diary a long time ago where Podcat said that the most popular path in Death or Dishonor was restoring Austria-Hungary. And it wasn't even close.

The dev team is going to put their effort into what will give them the most sales, and until the memes stop selling, that's what we'll be getting.

 

[Simon Marques]

Amusing side note (story from a TV show so take with a pinch of salt)

The UK was the only country to prepare a resistance movement before they were invaded. They asked the local constable (police officer) of small villages to nominate a group of lads for combat training. These forces were trained in resistance combat and sabotage and were send back to their villages with written instructions, to stay sealed until the country was invaded. Obviously these got opened (whether at the time or after the war was not made clear) and the first official order of the UK resistance forces was ... to kill the police officer who nominated them for training. He was the only person outside the group who knew all their identities so he had to be the first to die.


Also amusing - once C4 was invented and moved into production the first blocks of it weren't used by the military - they were sent to the potential resistance members for use in sabotage. They ended up sitting in peoples garages.


The leaders of the country had made plans for the worst case, and while seeing Germans in the street would have been shocking it wouldn't have caused a mindless panic. I believe the plan was for as many leaders as possible to be smuggled out and to continue the war from Canada.

I agree, England would never surrender as long as Churchil was the leader, they would continue to fight until his death. Hitler faced stubborn, cold-blooded enemies, of whom Churchil was one of the most terrible.

 

[Vlad123]

I agree, England would never surrender as long as Churchil was the leader, they would continue to fight until his death. Hitler faced stubborn, cold-blooded enemies, of whom Churchil was one of the most terrible.

A mission assassinate leader? Withouth FDR USA not know their economy regrowth, and alla action can hurt the axis. Exemple: Alf London have preferred remain neutral and isolated.

 

[safe-keeper]

Every time this "stop with the meme-y alt-history, it's a waste of time/resources" topic comes up, I really wish people would actually listen when it is pointed out that it is very much not a waste, because *it moves units*. There was a dev diary a long time ago where Podcat said that the most popular path in Death or Dishonor was restoring Austria-Hungary. And it wasn't even close.

The dev team is going to put their effort into what will give them the most sales, and until the memes stop selling, that's what we'll be getting.

I respect that a lot of people play minors, and alternative paths, but I'm still not convinced that plausible alternative history wouldn't sell as well or better than a second US cold war, or a communist revolution in 1936 Britain. The really crazy scenarios should be saved for alt-history universes - like Kaiserreich.

I mean, things like a second US civil war, or an economic breakdown and revolution in England and France after 1918 work in Kaiserreich, because the whole Kaiserreich universe is built around explaining why these things are happening.

Now, PDX making an alternate history HoI game, some "what if"-scenario like Kaiserreich? I'd be interested in seeing that. But communist America in a "vanilla" HoI game? I'm still not sold.

 

[squid_hills]

A mission assassinate leader? Withouth FDR USA not know their economy regrowth, and alla action can hurt the axis. Exemple: Alf London have preferred remain neutral and isolated.

What? No.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. The USA was infuriated by this. It was a humiliation to be attacked in US home territory, it was a surprise attack (seen as cowardly by Americans) and it was performed by a country the US had a low overall opinion of due to things we aren't allowed to discuss on the forums. The US would never stop fighting Japan, regardless of who the US President was.

Well, maybe Adam Hilt would make peace with Japan, but he's a fictional character.

Otherwise, the USA fights Japan until Japan surrenders. Germany declared war on the US, so Germany gets the same thing Japan gets: total war until total surrender.

You can assassinate FDR all you want; after December 7th 1941 it matters not one whit. The US is all-in on war. And there is no reason to assassinate FDR before December 7th, because prior to the Japanese attack, most of the US wanted to sit the war out. Assassinating the US president before December 7th leads to exactly the same outcome as bombing Pearl Harbor; a thoroughly pissed of USA decides to freedombomb you until Democracy happens.

 

[Vlad123]

What? No.

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. The USA was infuriated by this. It was a humiliation to be attacked in US home territory, it was a surprise attack (seen as cowardly by Americans) and it was performed by a country the US had a low overall opinion of due to things we aren't allowed to discuss on the forums. The US would never stop fighting Japan, regardless of who the US President was.

Well, maybe Adam Hilt would make peace with Japan, but he's a fictional character.

Otherwise, the USA fights Japan until Japan surrenders. Germany declared war on the US, so Germany gets the same thing Japan gets: total war until total surrender.

You can assassinate FDR all you want; after December 7th 1941 it matters not one whit. The US is all-in on war. And there is no reason to assassinate FDR before December 7th, because prior to the Japanese attack, most of the US wanted to sit the war out. Assassinating the US president before December 7th leads to exactly the same outcome as bombing Pearl Harbor; a thoroughly pissed of USA decides to freedombomb you until Democracy happens.

Wrong: FDR wanted war, he tried in every way to have it. The embargo on Japan of all oil and rubber served to push it into war. Which then was not a surprise attack why
1) the Americans had already decrypted the message (but the alarm was not given)
2) who had to deliver the message, had to deliver it 20/30 minutes before the attack, but between various slowdowns "the recipient of the letter was a generic commanding general" and the guy who didn't know exactly WHO to deliver the letter to.
3) killing FDR doesn't change ok, but killing Churchill? That I assume changes.
4) change oil to coal and USA to UK and you will see why Italy has entered the war. The UK embargoed Italy's coal to get one of two things: Either get it into the Allies to get British coal, or force it into the German coal axis, giving Hitler a southern front to think about. .