The AI pays half mineral maintenance (ships and consumer goods) on Normal

[Koizumi]

Let's try and avoid personal comments at this stage, he hasn't had a chance to respond.

Last thing I can find from Wiz talking directly about cheating AI is this:
https://twitter.com/martin_anward/status/700011280283910144?lang=en

"The AI in Stellaris actually doesn't have a single cheat so far. Gonna try and keep it that way."
But that was nearly two years ago...

Maybe something slipped in, maybe they figured the AI couldn't cope , maybe they forgot to tell us, maybe all three

I think the most recent "official" statement from Paradox on this topic is actually quite more recent. In an interview with Explorminate.net just a couple of weeks ago they said:

"For the most part, the AI plays with the exact same rules as players. They do not get any sort of direct resource output bonus, but they do get some situational lessened penalties and discounts, like a slightly smaller tech penalty per-pop and a discount on the cost of gene-modding projects, that’s meant to cover up specific weaknesses. There is absolutely no truth to the idea that the AI simply gets piles of resources, free ships or similar, though."

If you are interested, here is the interview link. I just pasted the answer to the question: "You personally did a lot of work with the AI in patch 1.8. In fact, many casual fans of Stellaris believe that the AI gets bonuses to its resources and science output on normal difficulty. Is this true?"

 

[Damedius]

Well when you look at how a small mismanaged AI Empire can somehow manage to maintain a fleet far above what it should while still managing to stock pile resources. There has to something up.

The reason why we are noticing it so much now is because of the changes to ship upkeep. Before it was a little more well hidden. Now it sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[FlyingPhoenix]

TBH I don't care if AI cheats or not, I just wish the lead dev hadn't belittled the fanbase that thought it was.

To be fair, whenever this complaint is made, it's the same complaint - namely that the AI has a much bigger fleet than the player, and how could this be possible without cheats. Then someone on the forum, be it Wiz or another player, piles in with "The AI doesn't cheat, it just manages its economy better than you do".

Look closely. +100 wouldn’t work with what op claims is -50% maintenance cost the displayed cost was 150 not 200. They would have gained 75 the numbers don’t match. What it looks like is they lost 38 (37 + decimal) then gained 100 from something else which is why I recommend more tests. Eg someone screenshot 3 turns and put them next to each other.

I don’t see an issue with confirming these things. I’m at work so I can’t do this right now. We would have to wait 8 hours.so can someone else?

Pardon?

The AI has 8343 energy, and an income of -46.39, with 4238 minerals and income of -37.81.

On the next day, it should have 8296 and 4200. Instead it differed.

As a matter of fact, I seem to recall Wiz actually admit on one of the streams that the AI does in fact cripple itself long run to maintain fleet power advantage, and he was looking to improve the AI on that front without making them sitting ducks.



Other people seem convinced that this ship maintenance reduction is old news-that it's been there since the game launched. Wiz is a new addition to the team, so he may not even be aware it's in his game. Of course, this isn't a mechanic no one around isn't familiar with-consumer goods ARE much more recent, and they also seem to be getting a discount on those.



No the AI does in fact suffer pirate attacks. I don't have pictures offhand since I have class and it's not exactly easy to notice when the AI is suffering from pirates, but I have seen it happen in my games.

The AI does not suffer pirate attacks. Pirates do not spawn for the AI, they only spawn for the player. Yes, those pirates might attack the AI instead of the player, but they do not spawn for the AI, meaning that the AI who are not bordering the player will never suffer a pirate attack.

Pirates that spawn from the birth of space piracy can't spawn for any player but the human players.

I think the most recent "official" statement from Paradox on this topic is actually quite more recent. In an interview with Explorminate.net just a couple of weeks ago they said:

"For the most part, the AI plays with the exact same rules as players. They do not get any sort of direct resource output bonus, but they do get some situational lessened penalties and discounts, like a slightly smaller tech penalty per-pop and a discount on the cost of gene-modding projects, that’s meant to cover up specific weaknesses. There is absolutely no truth to the idea that the AI simply gets piles of resources, free ships or similar, though."

If you are interested, here is the interview link. I just pasted the answer to the question: "You personally did a lot of work with the AI in patch 1.8. In fact, many casual fans of Stellaris believe that the AI gets bonuses to its resources and science output on normal difficulty. Is this true?"

So it is true then?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

2.0 fixed that for you since not having pirates is completely different.

Can you demonstrate that AI do not suffer from pirate attacks?

 

[Damedius]

Can you demonstrate that AI do not suffer from pirate attacks?

Someone was saying that before 2.0 the AI wouldn't get the birth of piracy event until you swtiched to playing as them. I haven't personally tried this but it's something you could investigate.

 

[FlyingPhoenix]

Can you demonstrate that AI do not suffer from pirate attacks?

Go to the event files. Birth of Space Piracy does not spawn for the AI.

 

[Matt516]

The AI clearly cheats to stay relevant, if it didn't this game would be extra boring as every AI would be a giant push over.

lol nobody noticed because the AI was still so bad with the cheat

BTW, I don't care if the AI cheats or not-I still beat it. It's incapable of min-maxing or future planning.

Yeah, that is sort of where I'm at as well. The AI has gotten better over time but still has some issues managing economy intelligently. I haven't had issues slowly pushing AI empires out on Normal, they never really feel like any big threat.

Still interested in dev word on this, but I do think this bonus could pretty persuasively be lumped in with the "situational lessened penalties... to cover up specific weaknesses" that the devs mentioned from the recent interview @Koizumi posted.

 

[RoverStorm]

Spoiler: pirate_events.txt

trigger = {
years_passed > 10
is_country_type = default
NOR = {
has_country_flag = birth_of_piracy
has_ethic = ethic_gestalt_consciousness
}
exists = capital_scope
any_controlled_planet = {
OR = {
has_mining_station = yes
has_research_station = yes
}
solar_system = {
NOT = { is_same_value = capital_scope.solar_system }
}
}
}

....uh, I don't see a "is AI controlled = 0" anywhere in there, where should I be looking?

 

[LiberiusX]

If the thing about AI empires not suffering from pirate attacks is correct then that's actually a double malus for the player (and therefore another advantage for the AI) because the only way to prevent pirate attacks is to claim systems. Systems which you might otherwise not claim so as to avoid the unity / tech penalties associated with expansion.

I don’t know if this is true in all cases. I will say that in all the cases where pirates spawned in an unclaimed system between me and the AI, the pirates always attacked me, and ignored the AI. I’ve only suffered 5 or 6 pirate spawns since release, which is hardly a good sample.

 

[Untrustedlife]

Spoiler: pirate_events.txt

trigger = {
years_passed > 10
is_country_type = default
NOR = {
has_country_flag = birth_of_piracy
has_ethic = ethic_gestalt_consciousness
}
exists = capital_scope
any_controlled_planet = {
OR = {
has_mining_station = yes
has_research_station = yes
}
solar_system = {
NOT = { is_same_value = capital_scope.solar_system }
}
}
}

....uh, I don't see a "is AI controlled = 0" anywhere in there, where should I be looking?

Yeah no pirates is pure speculation. Many have said that they do get pirates.

However resource income is definitely screwy.

Also, FlyingPhoenix
As I said before, you replied to me earlier. Yes the resources differed but as I explained it’s not halved maintenance costs it’s definitely something else the numbers don’t match up.

 

[razaron]

Spoiler: pirate_events.txt

trigger = {
years_passed > 10
is_country_type = default
NOR = {
has_country_flag = birth_of_piracy
has_ethic = ethic_gestalt_consciousness
}
exists = capital_scope
any_controlled_planet = {
OR = {
has_mining_station = yes
has_research_station = yes
}
solar_system = {
NOT = { is_same_value = capital_scope.solar_system }
}
}
}

....uh, I don't see a "is AI controlled = 0" anywhere in there, where should I be looking?

Birth of Piracy can only trigger for players.

Spoiler

event = {
    id = pirate.4
    hide_window = yes
    is_triggered_only = yes

    immediate = {
        every_country = {
            limit = {
                is_ai = no
                NOT = { has_country_flag = birth_of_piracy }
            }
            country_event = { id = pirate.5 }
        }
    }
}

`pirate.5` pulses the pirate spawning events.

 

[FlyingPhoenix]

Yeah no pirates is pure speculation. Many have said that they do get pirates.

However resource income is definitely screwy.

Also, FlyingPhoenix
As I said before, you replied to me earlier. Yes the resources differed but as I explained it’s not halved maintenance costs it’s definitely something else the numbers don’t match up.

Please quote or @tag, it is easier to see the reply.

Another user just posted the relevant code. But which document is it in?

Yes it is halved maintenance costs.

The displayed monthly gain is -37.81

Base income is +10,
Mineral Production is +151.40.

Ship Upkeep is -159.72,
Consumer goods is -39.49

Totalling that up gives you -37.81.

With halved mineral costs, the actual monthly gain is 4300 - 4238, or +62.

Base income is +10,
Mineral Production is +151.40.

Ship Upkeep is 0.5*-159.72,
Consumer goods is 0.5*-39.49,

Totalling that up gives you +61.79.

Minerals do not look fine, and the AI does pay half minerals on consumer goods and production, unless there is something else going on.

 

[Mann42]

While not entirely unsurprising, this is very disappointing.

I mean, if they had just admitted that the AI required a 50% maintenance reduction across all difficulties to be competitive, I wouldn't have necessarily liked it, but I would have grudgingly accepted it while hoping they continued to try to improve the AI to not need it.

But considering this has been apparently going on for a while while the devs claim they AI doesn't get resource advantages... yeah, I'm just disappointed.

 

[Sucellus]

Someone just add the "easy" difficulty where the player gets the same help as the AI please

 

[RoverStorm]

Someone just add the "easy" difficulty where the player gets the same help as the AI please

I'll just mod this in as a zero cost technology that gives -50% ship/consumergoods cost only available if AI=false and call it "Player/AI equalizer".

I will also edit that file and turn on birth of piracy for the AI if I can find it.

Anything else?

 

[RVallant]

But considering this has been apparently going on for a while while the devs claim they AI doesn't get resource advantages... yeah, I'm just disappointed.

Yeah, it just makes me wonder now, because the AI always maintains a sizeable force, and I thought I was getting the balance wrong in general on my own side. Turns out, it's half true, it's just I never factored in that the AI was getting half-off the maintenance. @_@

So the question I have is, are those bonuses justified in 2.0 for most people?

 

[Onkel_Bums]

I'll just mod this in as a zero cost technology that gives -50% ship/consumergoods cost only available if AI=false and call it "Player/AI equalizer".

I will also edit that file and turn on birth of piracy for the AI if I can find it.

Anything else?

Maybe you should add that as a start event for the player.

 

[Rep]

This is sad.

Will buy Endless Space 2 I guess...

That cheats too. I would say that all 4x games cheat on normal. It seems that it is hard to build an AI for this type of game.

 

[artemis667]

That cheats too. I would say that all 4x games cheat on normal. It seems that it is hard to build an AI for this type of game.

You're not wrong.

Still, the impact of this cheat's quite significant, I could understand maybe 10-20% discount, but not this magnitude. I'm going to have to have a look into the files when I get a chance, although it looks more complex than a simple modifier, almost as though it were hidden in the code.

 

[RoverStorm]

That cheats too. I would say that all 4x games cheat on normal. It seems that it is hard to build an AI for this type of game.

Yeah most 4x games have the AI cheat. At least for the Endless series, at normal difficulty it's primarily just world vision since the AI would overload the computer with re-calculations every time it unveiled a new tile.

In Civilization V it wasn't even trying to hide it. That said, that game's AI was exploitable as hell. In fact the AI was split-it had two different AI's, one controlled the units while the other controlled production and city management. So if there was no where to expand to, the production part of the AI didn't know and would still spit out a settler despite the Unit AI going "wtf what am I supposed to do with this?!?"

Paradox games actually have impressive AI, in my opinion, even with the cheats they get (take a look at "lucky" nations from EU4)