The AI pays half mineral maintenance (ships and consumer goods) on Normal

[artemis667]

I guess we'll just have to keep this topic on the front page till it gets acknowledgment from dev team. For one, I accept a cheating AI if the game admits it's cheating, having Wiz soap box about its flawlessness only for this to become a thing is quite detrimental to his trustworthiness and I would love to hear a good responds.

Let's try and avoid personal comments at this stage, he hasn't had a chance to respond.

Last thing I can find from Wiz talking directly about cheating AI is this:
https://twitter.com/martin_anward/status/700011280283910144?lang=en

"The AI in Stellaris actually doesn't have a single cheat so far. Gonna try and keep it that way."
But that was nearly two years ago...

Maybe something slipped in, maybe they figured the AI couldn't cope , maybe they forgot to tell us, maybe all three

 

[GuardianGI]

TBH I don't care if AI cheats or not, I just wish the lead dev hadn't belittled the fanbase that thought it was.

 

[Riftwalker]

Not sure what you are saying here? Take for example in my current game, I ask my federation member for minerals. At 3848 minerals being asked they have a -28 modifier. At 3849 they have -1000 modifier. I take this to mean that my federation member has 3848 minerals on hand because they cannot accept a trade for over that due to not actually having more than that amount on hand. Basically a protection from letting the AI give you more than they actually have.

so say you ask for another 2000 it might not let you go above like 4879, a different empire might not let you go above 892, another 1347. all empires will grey out the + button eventually after they have -1000

 

[Dr_Gentech]

And on another note: selling tedious micro as gameplay, and belittling those who called this out, is another thing along the same line. But that's a different topic.

Don't turn this into something it's not. We don't agree with this toxic attitude to games, it's not constructive.

The only thing I'm moderately concerned about is that myself and many others took a lead developer to have said the AI didn't cheat, and in that same thread and others we were all pretty dismissive towards people who felt the AI was cheating, which I think given OP and the proof that has been provided was not fair. I would like it clarified what benefits the AI receives on normal, and if there's an explanation further than that for why the differences are there I would appreciate that too.

 

[Onkel_Bums]

Don't turn this into something it's not. We don't agree with this toxic attitude to games, it's not constructive.

The toxicity towards games is one thing, toxicity towards playerbase is another. Anyway, I deleted the comment, but I am still interested in the conclusion of this topic.

 

[long_fella]

If the thing about AI empires not suffering from pirate attacks is correct then that's actually a double malus for the player (and therefore another advantage for the AI) because the only way to prevent pirate attacks is to claim systems. Systems which you might otherwise not claim so as to avoid the unity / tech penalties associated with expansion.

 

[Untrustedlife]

Actually if you read his posts, he carefully avoids saying anything about reduced upkeep.

e.g.



Note "full cost", not "full upkeep".



Technically "resource buffs" could be interpreted not to include upkeep reduction.



Some guy posted more on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/...at_on_normal/duu12mq/?st=je3q4sok&sh=f3c84882

It’s the same guy who created this thread look at the user name. Same person is also the op of that thread.So it’s not just some guy.

 

[Untrustedlife]

If the thing about AI empires not suffering from pirate attacks is correct then that's actually a double malus for the player (and therefore another advantage for the AI) because the only way to prevent pirate attacks is to claim systems. Systems which you might otherwise not claim so as to avoid the unity / tech penalties associated with expansion.

Ai def gets pirate attacks. I’ve seen it in several occasions.

I wish wiz wasn’t so quiet can he say something...

 

[long_fella]

Ai def gets pirate attacks. I’ve seen it in several occasions.

I wish wiz wasn’t so quiet can he say something...

That's good to know. And agreed re wiz coming out and addressing this definitively.

 

[Zarok47]

If it's true, it is odd, hope wiz can clairfy whats going on.

 

[Redroverone]

Marking this thread both for a potential response and to keep it up top where it belongs.

 

[Mrakvampire]

I agree that until we get a dev response this thread should be kept in top.

 

[artemis667]

I agree that until we get a dev response this thread should be kept in top.

I'm very interested in the answer myself.

Although if the answer is "Yeah, Stellaris 2.0 is more challenging for the AI, our tests showed they were falling apart and helpless, so we needed to help them along on normal, sorry for not saying something" I'm not sure how I feel.

It reminds me of the EU4 lucky nations cheat, where the standard setting (normal, ironman, no mods) gives all major AI countries a buff to help them compete and prove a challenging opponent to players mid and maybe late game. I understand why it's there, but I don't like it and I don't find it necessary for my games to be enjoyable. I'd probably do OK even with it on, but I like feeling that I'm on a level playing field and can play around with alternative strategies, not that I'm on an uneven field and need to min-max with the optimal strategy and tactics to compete.

 

[wheelman82]

I'm very interested in the answer myself.

Although if the answer is "Yeah, Stellaris 2.0 is more challenging for the AI, our tests showed they were falling apart and helpless, so we needed to help them along on normal, sorry for not saying something" I'm not sure how I feel.

It reminds me of the EU4 lucky nations cheat, where the standard setting (normal, ironman, no mods) gives all major AI countries a buff to help them compete and prove a challenging opponent to players mid and maybe late game. I understand why it's there, but I don't like it and I don't find it necessary for my games to be enjoyable. I'd probably do OK even with it on, but I like feeling that I'm on a level playing field and can play around with alternative strategies, not that I'm on an uneven field and need to min-max with the optimal strategy and tactics to compete.

This cheat has been in since launch, so it wouldn't be because of 2.0.

 

[LiberiusX]

subbed, as I'm curious what the Dev response will be.

I must admit, I feel much better now. I thought I just really sucked at the game. My empire would be larger than an AI's but their fleets would either be on par with mine or outgun mine.

crazy.

 

[Dr. B]

Perhaps the devs are working intensely on the bugfix feedback for 2.0 instead of drinking hot chocolate and reading the player forums this fine monday afternoon?
Just a thought. Might drop the name-calling and aggressive paranoia.

But always interesting to find out about the workings of the AI, whatever they are.

 

[Untrustedlife]

Someone tested the hypothesis on Reddit minerals look fine. Energy is way off.

“
([Before](https://i.imgur.com/oP5PC7s.png), [After](https://i.imgur.com/0SKx76y.png))

On Sept 30 AI has 8343-46 energy, 4238-37 minerals. On Oct 01 they *should* have 8297 energy and 4201 minerals, but they have more.”

I think more people should run tests to make sure the energy deficiency is not a fluke. But it isn’t minerals so it isn’t as high impact but it shows why they can maintain larger fleets without deficit.

 

[RVallant]

Someone tested the hypothesis on Reddit minerals look fine. Energy is way off.

“
([Before](https://i.imgur.com/oP5PC7s.png), [After](https://i.imgur.com/0SKx76y.png))

On Sept 30 AI has 8343-46 energy, 4238-37 minerals. On Oct 01 they *should* have 8297 energy and 4201 minerals, but they have more.”

I think more people should run tests to make sure the energy deficiency is not a fluke. But it isn’t minerals so it isn’t as high impact but it shows why they can maintain larger fleets without deficit.

How is minerals fine if they've gained when they're supposed to be losing minerals in that example?

 

[Untrustedlife]

How is minerals fine if they've gained when they're supposed to be losing minerals in that example?

Look closely. +100 wouldn’t work with what op claims is -50% maintenance cost the displayed cost was 150 not 200. They would have gained 75 the numbers don’t match. What it looks like is they lost 38 (37 + decimal) then gained 100 from something else which is why I recommend more tests. Eg someone screenshot 3 turns and put them next to each other.

I don’t see an issue with confirming these things. I’m at work so I can’t do this right now. We would have to wait 8 hours.so can someone else?

 

[RoverStorm]

I would guess that the AI's biggest flaw / failure is self inflicted focus on fleet

As a matter of fact, I seem to recall Wiz actually admit on one of the streams that the AI does in fact cripple itself long run to maintain fleet power advantage, and he was looking to improve the AI on that front without making them sitting ducks.

Maybe something slipped in, maybe they figured the AI couldn't cope , maybe they forgot to tell us, maybe all three

Other people seem convinced that this ship maintenance reduction is old news-that it's been there since the game launched. Wiz is a new addition to the team, so he may not even be aware it's in his game. Of course, this isn't a mechanic no one around isn't familiar with-consumer goods ARE much more recent, and they also seem to be getting a discount on those.

If the thing about AI empires not suffering from pirate attacks is correct

No the AI does in fact suffer pirate attacks. I don't have pictures offhand since I have class and it's not exactly easy to notice when the AI is suffering from pirates, but I have seen it happen in my games.

This cheat has been in since launch, so it wouldn't be because of 2.0.

I have no way of confirming if you're correct, but I'll take your word for it. However, consumer goods reduction IS a new mechanic since Utopia.