The AI pays half mineral maintenance (ships and consumer goods) on Normal

[Madzai]

It's absolutely hilarious actually. I checked a bunch of old threads about supposed evidence of AI cheating on Normal. All Wiz answers looked like (or seemed so) "no, AI doesn't cheat", but ACTUALLY he never said that. It looked like he just decided to say "AI doesn't cheat" in a strange, roundabout way, but actually he deliberately said it that way. He specially stated things AI don't do, while carefully avoided to mention any areas there AI do cheat. Nice job.

 

[Onkel_Bums]

Oh yeah, the AI also knows the status of (non-empire owned) hostiles in systems even if it doesn't have sensor range of them, so it'll know if for instance a space amoeba is cleared out of a system and send science ships to explore it. Otherwise it obeys sensor range rules.

Ah, this explains why they always pop up with science ships when monsters are cleared, even without active sensor links... "How the hell did they know this?!"

 

[razaron]

That's really not how I would characterize it, it was specifically in relation to the belief that the AI has no need to produce resources and simply gets them for free, which is a widespread belief that simply isn't true. I don't consider reduced maintenance to be the same thing as simply being given a pile of resources without needing buildings or stations to produce it.

Is the AI not getting pirates WAD or a bug? If it is WAD I'm curious as to why? I've modded in AI getting pirates in my current game and the AI handles them just fine.

 

[Wizzington]

Some of the AI discounts have been in since 1.0, some have changed, some haven't. Doubt people would remember patch notes from nearly two years ago (assuming they read them in the first place...)

If I recall correctly, the mineral maintenance discount wasn't in 1.0 but was introduced at a later date. There's also some cheats that used to be in the game and have since been removed. I would love for the AI to have no cheats at all, but ultimately the AI only exists to provide an experience for the player and if letting it cheat in specific ways to cover up weaknesses gives a better experience, then that's what we're going to do.

 

[Wizzington]

Is the AI not getting pirates WAD or a bug? If it is WAD I'm curious as to why? I've modded in AI getting pirates in my current game and the AI handles them just fine.

That's actually just a bug. They are intended to get pirates.

 

[EvilKnievel82]

The AI does indeed pay reduced mineral maintenance (and in some cases reduced energy maintenance). To my knowledge I have never claimed otherwise, only that the AI does not simply get free ships or otherwise can build for free (which it does and can not). The reason it gets reduced maintenance is mostly to do with the complexity of the tile system and the fact that it isn't as good as a player at resource prioritization. Hopefully at some point we can get the AI good enough to not need these sort of cheats, but the honest truth is that AI will probably always need to cheat in some specific ways to cover up weaknesses (another example of this would be that the AI pays much lower costs for gene-modding because otherwise it tends to hold up its own research for far too long).

Maybe then it would be an idea to give the AI less / no advantages on normal difficulty as a lot of new players seem to struggle a lot against the AI due to the maintainance advantages. Or intruduce an "easy" difficulty where it pays the same as the player. I started the game shortly after it came out and I did not really have a game where I was defeated by the AI. However even after playing a few hundred hours I had a really hard time in the first games after the AI was improved in 1.8 or 1.9. I think If I had to start the game now from zero game experience normal difficulty would be a tough ride. I still mostly play on normal, because it is still a bit of a challenge in some phases of the game... so it is clearly too hard on normal right now for many beginners.

 

[Wizzington]

Maybe then it would be an idea to give the AI less / no advantages on normal difficulty as a lot of new players seem to struggle a lot against the AI due to the maintainance advantages. Or intruduce an "easy" difficulty where it pays the same as the player. I strated the game shortly after it came out and I did not really have a game where I was defeated by the AI. However even after playing a few hundred hours I had a really hard time in the first games after the AI was improved in 1.8 or 1.9. I think If I had to start the game now from zero game experience normal difficulty would be a tough ride. I still mostly play on normal, because it is still a bit of a challenge in some phases of the game... so it is clearly too hard on normal right now for many beginners.

The plan is to add a casual difficulty mode where the AI doesn't cheat at all and expands less aggressively. There wasn't time for it for 2.0, unfortunately.

 

[Twimak]

Does the AI know how to use chokepoints? wouldn't mind some cheating there if they build up some real defenses in smart places.

 

[Lordban]

If I recall correctly, the mineral maintenance discount wasn't in 1.0 but was introduced at a later date.

Someone did a test, apparently that was there (captures in spoiler).

Spoiler: Captures, first in control, second as observer

Frankly, the only reason it's really become visible is because that half-cost represents a lot more of an Empire's total income (essentially the AI, if I remember my figures, has gone up from having an advantage over the player equating 0.375% of its fleet value per month to 1% of its fleet value per month). A lot of people are struggling to build a decent economy too in 2.0 and try to get to the fleet cap very fast - they notice even more that the AI has more to spend.

 

[Valaska]

If I recall correctly, the mineral maintenance discount wasn't in 1.0 but was introduced at a later date. There's also some cheats that used to be in the game and have since been removed. I would love for the AI to have no cheats at all, but ultimately the AI only exists to provide an experience for the player and if letting it cheat in specific ways to cover up weaknesses gives a better experience, then that's what we're going to do.

In a perfect world we'd see them simply step up the programming on the AI... But in all fairness that's a lot of work to an excessive amount. I am betting Paradox will probably continue to improve the AI and attempt to lessen the demand for such drastic cheats like "50% maintenance discount" being capable of cutting that down and making AI more aggressive or defensive depending on their edicts etc.

This is an extremely complex project, Stellaris... I don't envy the programmers having to program a SM that controls every single darn empire etc. But I have confidence Paradox will keep trying.

 

[Lordban]

That's actually just a bug. They are intended to get pirates.

Attached an event file with the pirates spawning (deleted the is_ai = no trigger in event pirate.4). Tested it out on observer mode, pirates spawn as normal.

 

[Wizzington]

In that case I just didn't remember precisely when I put it in. It's true that it's a lot more significant now, though. Might need toning down.

 

[MrParadux]

- The AI has no penalty for being over sector or starbase cap (but is coded to never stay above the cap so it's not an actual advantage, it's just so that it doesn't suffer crushing penalties while shuffling sectors around)

What happens, if the AI gets control over additional starbases (via wars or integration). Does it remove the ones over its cap?

 

[Wizzington]

What happens, if the AI gets control over additional starbases (via wars or integration). Does it remove the ones over its cap?

Yeah, it downgrades the least important ones. Those cheats are really just there to cover edge cases where it's shuffling things around or its logic gets stuck.

 

[UberWaffe]

Sure:
- The AI pays reduced mineral costs for ships and consumer goods
- The AI pays slightly reduced energy cost for ships (this is temporary since 2.0 and is going to be removed once we make it a bit better at specializing starbases)
- The AI has no penalty for being over sector or starbase cap (but is coded to never stay above the cap so it's not an actual advantage, it's just so that it doesn't suffer crushing penalties while shuffling sectors around)
- The AI pays less for gene/robo-modding projects

There's a couple additional cheats that I'm planning to get rid of soon since I don't feel they're needed anymore:
- The AI pays reduced influence cost for diplomacy
- The AI gets slightly reduced system/planet tech penalty

That should be the entire list, not counting the straight up bonuses given at higher difficulties.

@Wiz: Very helpful to know. Any chance that as far as possible these could be exposed as modifiers in the static modifiers.
There seems to be a placeholder for normal as well.

difficulty_normal_ai = {
}

It would be helpful to modders mostly, but would be appreciated none the less.

 

[Wizzington]

Attached an event file with the pirates spawning (deleted the is_ai = no trigger in event pirate.4). Tested it out on observer mode, pirates spawn as normal.

Yep. We'll fix.

 

[FlyingPhoenix]

The AI does indeed pay reduced mineral maintenance (and in some cases reduced energy maintenance). To my knowledge I have never claimed otherwise, only that the AI does not simply get free ships or otherwise can build for free (which it does and can not). The reason it gets reduced maintenance is mostly to do with the complexity of the tile system and the fact that it isn't as good as a player at resource prioritization. Hopefully at some point we can get the AI good enough to not need these sort of cheats, but the honest truth is that AI will probably always need to cheat in some specific ways to cover up weaknesses (another example of this would be that the AI pays much lower costs for gene-modding because otherwise it tends to hold up its own research for far too long).

I suggest you read the "Stellaris is Way too Unfair" thread, where you directly tell another forum goer that the AI doesn't get any resource buffs on normal, that it is simply better at managing its economy than the player in question.

The reality is that "paying less maintenance" is an economic buff. If you're paying 20% of your mineral income on your fleet, that's a substantial amount. Even more noticeable in the new update, but even pre-2.0 100 naked corvettes would have a maintenance of what 50 minerals a month?

Current game: My Rethellian Coalition has mineral expenditure on ships of 556 per month. 50% of that gives the equivalent AI next to me an extra 278 minerals per month to spend on stuff, including ships. That's huge.

You've been pretty rude to players on these forums about this issue. It would be lovely in future if you:
a) did not lie by omission,
b) did not deride players who suspect that the AI is cheating (because yes, free resources is cheating, it doesn't matter if its a console hack or a If(AI) then (0.5*Maintenance Cost)
c) were upfront and honest about the advantages the AI is getting, especially if players are saying "I suspect the AI is getting free resources"

 

[Wizzington]

@Wiz: Very helpful to know. Any chance that as far as possible these could be exposed as modifiers in the static modifiers.
There seems to be a placeholder for normal as well.

difficulty_normal_ai = {
}

It would be helpful to modders mostly, but would be appreciated none the less.

The reason they're not modifiers is because we don't want them to be additive with other modifiers. I could put them in defines though.

 

[Turelus]

This thread is awesome for insight into the games workings, thanks for taking the time to fill us in!

 

[Dark_messiah93]

I think that IA cheating on maintenance isn't a bad idea, or it'll be too boring playing on normal.
With the 2.0, it's just too much and maybe we need a little adjustment