The AI *must* be cheating with regard to techs...

[OHgamer]

This is one area where a human making an alliance with an AI nation is able to do very well.

You want a 1:1 relationship on tech trades - get yourself allied with one of the tech powerhouses. An ally with whom you keep relations at 195-200 almost always will trade 1:1 on a tech basis.

 

[unmerged(17791)]

All I know is, in my current game (UK) I keep dumping all kinds of tech on British India, and I'm carefully watching their research points in the national comparison, both before and after the deal(s). It would seem the AI doesn't have to 'reverse engineer' techs like the human player does. Not at all. British India has 20-something research points, I dump 5 naval techs on him (and score a nice cash prize, plus a tech which I of course have to reverse engineer), but what's this? The AI country takes no hit on it's research points. In fact there's dozens of AI countries w/ 50+ research points available, in 1861 (GC).

Working as designed? Of course not. But, whatever. I'll just have to use my human brain and outsmart all these cheating AI's. Heck, anything else would be astonishingly atypical, in my 25 years of PC gaming.

 

[unmerged(9599)]

As already explained you pay no RP in a trade which was initiated by the other player.

If you don't believe me try Multiplayer.

 

[OHgamer]

As I said in another thread, the human has the biggest cheat in any computer game - a human brain with the flexibility to be able to judge potential outcomes based on numerous ideas of actions all at the same time.

Humans can keep a dozen plates spinning on poles all at once because they can see which plates are losing rotation fairly early on. AI only notices the problem once the plate is in the process of crashing to the ground.

 

[unmerged(63310)]

The rules *are* the same. If two human players coped ai behaviour they would get every second tech for free as well, thus effectively getting a tech for half the cost. The problem is that the ais since 1.04 are unlikely to initiate trade with human players on equal terms - more of an ai file tweak than an engine chage. You can still easily offer one for one deals as long as your relations are high and BB remains low.

If you payed close attention to RPs ai countries have you'd notice negative RPs is the only thing that stops them from even more trading - this obviously shows the same rules apply for both human and ai controlled countries.

Well perhaps its due to 1.4 since I don't really remember how it worked prior to that, but I find AI nations extremely reluctant to do 1 for 1 trades even when I have +200 relations. I've been offered a single old tech for 1 thrur 4 colony claims several times by AI, but never a tech for a tech. I don't mind that the major AI's build a huge tech lead, that usually makes sense although sometimes Russia and a couple other countries having techs on par with UK isn't very historical.

It's the small nations like Mexico or Spain being only one or two techs behind UK when I'm playing Portugal and squeezing every research point out that I can. I just wish the tech part of the game was more relaxed so I could concentrate on more historical themes rather than having to make sure I have the best ratio of clerks in my factories and claiming some land just for prestige only to sell it for techs to stay competitive. I'd rather AI was more aggressive in colonizing and industrializing instead of technology.

I guess I'm just disappointed in the tech curve being so sharp, fall one or two techs behind in military or industrial area and you are starting to get into trouble. In real history a country like France which was militarily far, far ahead of Russia still had enormous problems in a war vs Russia due to distance and the fact that military technical advantages didn't impart the huge effeciency gulf which the game gives them. UK has some military advantages over many states it fought, but it's primary advantage was its dominant navy which had only a few better technologies, but more traditions and an instinct for self preservation which was to be at all times the largest navy on the waters and maintain that advantage by trimming back any rival who seemed to be getting close.

 

[unmerged(49082)]

Well perhaps its due to 1.4 since I don't really remember how it worked prior to that,

In 1.03c you could get something like 1 out of 3 or 1 out of 4 deals offered by the ai if you played nicely but it is just not gonna happen in 1.04.

I find AI nations extremely reluctant to do 1 for 1 trades even when I have +200 relations.

With low BB it is 100% chance for me.

I've been offered a single old tech for 1 thrur 4 colony claims several times by AI, but never a tech for a tech.

So it is still a major boost of you concentrate on one field.

I don't mind that the major AI's build a huge tech lead, that usually makes sense although sometimes Russia and a couple other countries having techs on par with UK isn't very historical.

In my games most coutries outtech their historical counterparts (given how pathetically some of them perform in areas other than tech, esp. with my "help", this makes me unhappy as well) but Russia doesn't seem to catch up with UK/Germany/USA. There is a slight problem but nothing a human player cannot deal with.

I guess I'm just disappointed in the tech curve being so sharp, fall one or two techs behind in military or industrial area and you are starting to get into trouble.

I think you overestimate the importance of techs. Only the first two army techs are crucial for combat and after that mass + strategy does the job. And even with puny research the really indispensable techs can be reached in reasonable time.

 

[NikkTheTrick]

Ummm if you give a tech to someone and do not get a tech in return you lose 10 prestige.

A moderate and acceptable loss...

As Russia, I often gave firearm techs to China at prestiege loss just to have them bleed Britain white. Was worth every prestiege point when China occupied all their Indian holdings.

 

[Agenor]

A moderate and acceptable loss...

As Russia, I often gave firearm techs to China at prestiege loss just to have them bleed Britain white. Was worth every prestiege point when China occupied all their Indian holdings.

Eh, I've never seen the AI do that. Usually China gets stomped on. I must give them techs in future!

 

[NikkTheTrick]

Eh, I've never seen the AI do that. Usually China gets stomped on. I must give them techs in future!

If you supply them with army techs, Chinese army will perform equal - man for man - to British army. Add to that the fact that Chinese army costs 10 times less in maintenance (native quality) and China has bigger manpower, Britain is in a world of hurt

When the war was waging for a while, I developed Breech-Loaded rifles and gave those to Chinese. British forces, who hade mussle-loaded rifles, got slaughtered

 

[unmerged(17791)]

As already explained you pay no RP in a trade which was initiated by the other player.

If you don't believe me try Multiplayer.

But still my points stands; the AI is trading with itself like crazy, with impunity / no penalty. So effectively you have a "1 human playing by the rules VS. many super-advantaged AI" scenario, which is the bulk of what I've seen since the dawn of electronic gaming.

 

[unmerged(49082)]

But still my points stands; the AI is trading with itself like crazy, with impunity / no penalty. So effectively you have a "1 human playing by the rules VS. many super-advantaged AI" scenario, which is the bulk of what I've seen since the dawn of electronic gaming.

It is a bit unfair albeit within rules. But as OHgamer said it is rather the other way around. Many AIs vs. 1 super-advantaged brain using human. True, it is annoying at times but does it prevent you from winning anyway?

 

[Secret Master]

This is one area where a human making an alliance with an AI nation is able to do very well.

You want a 1:1 relationship on tech trades - get yourself allied with one of the tech powerhouses. An ally with whom you keep relations at 195-200 almost always will trade 1:1 on a tech basis.

That's the real trick to strong research in Victoria.

It's even easier to accomplish if you force two or three countries like Belgium to become satellites. You just let them research away at their normally high rate, and you swap techs with them periodically. By doing this with two or three satellites, you can effectively research few of your own techs, and just act as a technological "Middle Man" between your satellites. Just make sure you snag the cultural techs that give educational bonuses when they become available.

The only thing you can't do is swap for cultural techs. This is not as bad as you might think, given the difficulty a human has of getting the prestige bonus for being #1 to discover a cultural tech. It can be a pain, though, if you want to grab certain political techs (I'm thinking Ideological Thought or Nationalism and Imperialism here).

But still my points stands; the AI is trading with itself like crazy, with impunity / no penalty. So effectively you have a "1 human playing by the rules VS. many super-advantaged AI" scenario, which is the bulk of what I've seen since the dawn of electronic gaming.

If you use my method, you can have your own tech-trading cabal. Satellites can't trade techs with other powers. So, you can turn the scenario around and have it be a 3 vs the rest of the world tech race rather than everyone versus you.

You can even turn this technique into a fairly menacing exploit if you satellite major powers, like Spain, France, or Italy. Imagine playing Germany and trading techs exclusively with satellite France and satellite Belgium. I've done it once, and I spent most of the game with nothing to research... Not to mention nothing else to really conquer.

 

[Corbett]

All I know is, in my current game (UK) I keep dumping all kinds of tech on British India, and I'm carefully watching their research points in the national comparison, both before and after the deal(s). It would seem the AI doesn't have to 'reverse engineer' techs like the human player does. Not at all. British India has 20-something research points, I dump 5 naval techs on him (and score a nice cash prize, plus a tech which I of course have to reverse engineer), but what's this? The AI country takes no hit on it's research points. In fact there's dozens of AI countries w/ 50+ research points available, in 1861 (GC).

Working as designed? Of course not. But, whatever. I'll just have to use my human brain and outsmart all these cheating AI's. Heck, anything else would be astonishingly atypical, in my 25 years of PC gaming.

British India is a special case, actually. As you probably know, RP generation is linked to the national POPs and neglects non-national POPs. In British India, the nationals are the white British administration and all of the locals are non-national and therefore inconsequential to RP growth. As British India in V:R receives good deal of capitalists by event and starts with a national population that is very educated, (clergy, aristocrats, et cetera) it generates a tremendous amount of research points.

For all other AIs, as far as I recall, you do not pay for techs that the other party offers to give you but only techs that you ask for. This primarily applies to the AI because the AI rarely offers humans a good deal that is worth taking on techs. I suspect that if you accepted a techs-for-claims deal, about the only kind that the AI bothers propose to you, you might find that your RP remains undiminished. I would actually be quite interested in seeing the results of this sort of experiment.

 

[OHgamer]

Just to clarify for everyone - British India is separate only in the VIP version of Victoria:Revolutions, not in the base Paradox version of Revolutions, which has India as an integral part of the UK.

 

[RELee]

OK. This is not my idea, but I certainly don't remember who posted it.

AI's do swap tech at a prodigious rate that humans cannot equal because they are simply a piece of code that instructs them to check other countries and if those other countries posses techs that they don't have, swap for it. The AI's are always on. Humans, well we get sloppy now and again don't we? This problem is not even exclusive to Victoria. Galactic Civilizations II has the same issue and for the very same reason. Fortunately, GCII has a switch to turn off all tech trading.

Anyway, on to the idea. You gain a new tech. Pause the game. Check the Great Powers. Start with the UK. Does your new tech show up as being tradeable? Great! You have a leg up. Trade it for another tech. Do not unpause the game. Go to the next GP and trade with them. You can go negative on research points if you like, although I very seldom take down to below a -10. You can play it as you desire, but it seems to me that RPs recover more slowly when they drop into the negative. I do not have any data to support this notion.

Any way, so long as the game is paused, the other countries are not trading your newly researched technology. But just as soon as you unpause, them little AI codes are going to go to work and that first AI you traded with is going to start trading away, and those countries will start trading and suddenly you have critical mass and then EVERYONE has the new tech, and you have nothing.

Don't have excess RP's, try and use the new tech plus some money from your treasury to trade land for tech or something.

Anyway, this trick works much better in the late game when you have a lot of excess research points, assuming you do have excess. Sometimes I don't. A smaller European country like Belgium or the Netherlands is almost always guaranteed to have excess RP's by late game, however. Brazil or Peru, maybe not so much. Still it's not impossible.

 

[Orm]

You can play it as you desire, but it seems to me that RPs recover more slowly when they drop into the negative. I do not have any data to support this notion.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I think it's just a matter of impatience.
What does happen though, is that no new RP's are added to your current research as long as your RP is in the negative.

 

[unmerged(17791)]

[...]

For all other AIs, as far as I recall, you do not pay for techs that the other party offers to give you but only techs that you ask for. This primarily applies to the AI because the AI rarely offers humans a good deal that is worth taking on techs. I suspect that if you accepted a techs-for-claims deal, about the only kind that the AI bothers propose to you, you might find that your RP remains undiminished. I would actually be quite interested in seeing the results of this sort of experiment.

I see it fairly often. Even as the techonolgically superior UK, it just so happened (primarily due to my naval-industrial emphasis - persuing advanced techs & leaving some lower level ones behind temporarily) that there were a few years I was lacking a tech most of the leading AI's had. The Netherlands kept approaching me with a deal (3 times) offering to give me the tech plus a little cash... for... a key colonial claim in Africa! Yeah, that's it. Thanks but no thanks.

On a side note, the deal looked like this, every time:

Sir, the Netherlands is offering us the following deal:

Technology: Weapons Platforms, 
Technology: Weapons Platforms,
Technology: Weapons Platforms,
plus £1,500

for

Colonial claim: Bathurst,
Colonial claim: Bathurst,
Colonial claim: Bathurst

Do you accept?

I thought maybe I was getting tired, and seeing triple... but no. :wacko: