The absurdly low cost of warships : a small example

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Achanei

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I agree that naval battles are a bit dull and all the ship mechanics terribly unrealistic, but after reading this thread, folks, please keep in mind that sensible game mechanics take precedent over historical accuracy. Otherwise, you end up with a beautifully accurate game that is completely unplayable.

So with that in mind - heavy ships are underperforming, as freudia already pointed out. You can maintain 12 galleys for the cost of a single heavy ship, so the only situation where heavies are the preferred option is if you are a rich country with very few sea provinces, thus mostly restricted by naval FL. good examples would be persia, austria or russia. For most countries, however, naval FL is just a very large number especially once you get to the higher tier naval buildings - not to mention colonies ot trade companies. at that point, just throw a 300 galley doomstack at everything, easy pickings.

Now, I agree that naval combat could use some love, and that there are a lot of dents in the realism to make for better gameplay, some of which could be worked out in a more realistic fashion. But please do not try to use historical costs and realism as argument for balancing gameplay one way or another. Yes, it doesn't make sense that a ship built in 1445 is still happily protecting trade 300 years later, but really, would it be a fun gameplay having to rebuild your entire navy every 30y or so? 1000 horses don't fit on a single cog, but would we enjoy the game more if 85% of FL was always needed for transports?

For immersion, I usually think of ships as an abstract representation - its not a single cog, its a group of ships that moves as single unit with the capacity to transport a whole regiment. The maintenance costs for ships already include the cost for rebuilding/overhauling them every couple of decades, its just that as great leader, you have accountants to handle that. Due to the early colonization of the carribean, the captains and officers of any ship are always oversupplied with rum and can't be trusted to assist in coastal land battles, they only can be tasked with really simple stuff like "go there and let nothing through" ;)
 

ashmizen

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You're obviously exaggerating then. At the start of the game there aren't 300 heavies (let alone 600) in the entire world. Some countries don't even have the tech for cogs. Even late in the game there might be 600 heavies in total in the world, but they're usually spread across the continents and many belong to CNs. A large battle rarely has more than 50 heavies in total.
Hyperbole is hyperbole, but let's try not to stray away from the game while complaining. The typical 100-200 ship battle in EU4 is usually something like 10% - 40% - 30% - 20%. So just 10-20 heavies.
The real problem is the 100% wipe of the defeated side. Casualties should range from 10-40% for the winner and 20-80% for the loser, IMO. Definitely not 100% casualties in 100% of battles.

You do know that you can make cannons out of bronze, right? The materials aren't the problem, every Bronze Age civilization could somewhat craft stuff out of wood and textiles and bronze (99% of the materials in a ship). The real problem is the expertise for creating ocean faring ships stable enough to carry guns and fire them accurately. The gap between the first boats and the first successful cannon-firing ships is probably 2000-3000 years or more.

The game makes some strange compromises: everyone has the latest cannons and ships, if it can keep up in tech. However infantry and cavalry lag based on tech groups!
I say compromise because the game designers obviously thought about these topics - they're not accidental. I'd really love to hear from a dev why things are the way they are.

Nitpick - the Aztecs didn't have Bronze either. In fact, they didn't have technology to work with any metal at all, as their sharpest material was rock.....
 

oblio-

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Nitpick - the Aztecs didn't have Bronze either. In fact, they didn't have technology to work with any metal at all, as their sharpest material was rock.....
Nitpicking the nitpicker: they did have copper :p
(AFAIK it can't be used for guns, though)
 

okokokok

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Ok call me crazy but I think I have a special solution to this.

Light ships are used to protect trade / steer trade.

Heavy ships provide a multiplier on the effectiveness of your light ships and negative multiplier on the effectiveness of other light ships. Than since heavies are now more useful they can be made more expensive.

Also regarding patrolling trade, I think it will be more interesting if ships have to spend more time in port refitting if they take more attrition patrolling trade and take longer to repair. This would force the player to have gaps in his trade income, so he would have to make a decision to either optimize the efficiency of his trade fleets by either arranging fora continuous rotation with more numerous smaller fleets or having one big one which will be less vulnerable in event of war /ambush but also less efficient. There also needs to be more incentive to spread out your trade influence fleets farther.


Also I am not sure if this is in game but certain strategic resources should increase your naval force limit more than simply having coasts. Beaches do not build ships nor repair them. harbors and supplies and manpower and money and industry do. There should be some harbours that give a large NFL boost and some coastal provinces that give none / little. Industry is also really important for making ships since each heavy ship requires hundreds of thousands of nails, miles of rope, miles of planks, tar, engineers, and so many other things industry has to provide. So having some of the early industry should boost your NF limit.
 
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Achanei

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There should be some harbours that give a large NFL boost and some coastal provinces that give none / little. Industry is also really important for making ships since each heavy ship requires hundreds of thousands of nails, miles of rope, miles of planks, tar, engineers, and so many other things industry has to provide. So having some of the early industry should boost your NF limit.

there are. important centers of trade and some estuaries give you extra FL. early industry like the tier 3 naval building gives you extra FL. so does putting resources towards naval dominance via ideas.
 

cleef

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You would then have to lower losses from naval battles as well if you were to do that. Otherwise you will never see the AI rebuild there navies basically and in multiplayer naval nations such as Portugal, Japan, GB, Venice, etc would become super weak as one naval battle loss will screw them over. As it is losing one Naval battle as GB is pretty much game over, which is absurd as I can guarantee you that GB lost at least one naval battle in the time frame and that did not result in the occupation of the UK.

I agree with you... this should also happen... We need to revamp the naval battle system... Less sunk ships, more badly damaged ships, perhaps some more captured ships AND make ship repair slower... Have you guys noticed when you upgrade ships how fast does it take...