The A.I. Arms Race!!!!

[unmerged(12287)]

with the risk of repeating what other pple said, the stats seem very promising..
i'm willing to test it - to hell with college exams

barbu67@hotmail.com

and in case people forgot.. world war 2 *was* a massive, sorta sluggish affair (sluggish in the sense that a lot of units were involved).. i hate my current game in which with three units i conquered russia..
i'll post some results after testing.

 

[unmerged(11648)]

What we really need is a one shot *MOBILIZATION* event.

Most nations did not keep huge peacetime armies, but relied on mobilization.

Say, when France enters war the event is triggered and several divisions are placed into the build queue (0 IC cost) simulating reservist going to depots to pick up their guns and a *short* time later they are available for strategic deployment.

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by DAVEH
Thanks for the comments guys but like i said i only did this to prove what could be done - this was just a rough job done in 6 or so hours without any real testing but it really does look more interesting this way and proves the potential of the game.

Can somebody (With more knowledge of these things) voulenteer to put the files up for everyone to use and i'll email them tonight when i get in from work (About 6:30 in england).


Anyway, off to work

Daveh :

Don't get me wrong, we all appreciate the effort. Your shot at it here is interesting from the perspective of seeing what the AI actually does with it. This gives us a better handle on changes that I thing could result in a better game and more historical flow.

I like to see continuation of the table you provided that breakdown the total unit numbers year by year, if you can do that.

 

[danielwww]

I've made some simular changes:
1/ decreased building time for land and air units.
2/ raised the default organization values, gives german a bit lower advantage, and the fight is longer and gives more casualty. 3/ Increased the air-defense for all land units.
4/ Moved the Russian capital back to the Urals, because when you loose your capital you loose all your IC (bug), and cant build more units/ and supplies.

Easiest to apply these changes is to edit one of the tech files (only one file to change), I've added this to the first tech in the industrial tech tree:

command = { type = air_defense which = armor when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = infantry when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = cavalry when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = motorized when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = mechanized when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = paratrooper when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = marine when = now value = 4 }
command = { type = air_defense which = bergsjaeger when = now value = 4 }

command = { type = air_attack which = armor when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = infantry when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = cavalry when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = motorized when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = mechanized when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = paratrooper when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = marine when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = air_attack which = bergsjaeger when = now value = 1 }

command = { type = night_attack which = armor when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = infantry when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = cavalry when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = motorized when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = mechanized when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = paratrooper when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = marine when = now value = -5 }
command = { type = night_attack which = bergsjaeger when = now value = -5 }

command = { type = night_defense which = armor when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = infantry when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = cavalry when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = motorized when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = mechanized when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = paratrooper when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = marine when = now value = -25 }
command = { type = night_defense which = bergsjaeger when = now value = -25 }

command = { type = max_organization which = armor when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = infantry when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = cavalry when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = motorized when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = mechanized when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = paratrooper when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = marine when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = bergsjaeger when = now value = 20 }
command = { type = max_organization which = militia when = now value = 20 }

command = { type = build_time which = armor when = now value = -90 }
command = { type = build_time which = infantry when = now value = -40 }
command = { type = build_time which = cavalry when = now value = -45 }
command = { type = build_time which = motorized when = now value = -80 }
command = { type = build_time which = mechanized when = now value = -80 }
command = { type = build_time which = paratrooper when = now value = -75 }
command = { type = build_time which = marine when = now value = -75 }
command = { type = build_time which = bergsjaeger when = now value = -75 }
command = { type = build_time which = artillery when = now value = -15 }
command = { type = build_time which = anti_tank when = now value = -15 }
command = { type = build_time which = anti_air when = now value = -15 }
command = { type = build_time which = engineer when = now value = -15 }

command = { type = build_time which = fighter when = now value = -60 }
command = { type = build_time which = strategic_bomber when = now value = -60 }
command = { type = build_time which = tactical_bomber when = now value = -60 }
command = { type = build_time which = torpedo_plane when = now value = -60 }
command = { type = build_time which = transport_plane when = now value = -60 }
command = { type = build_time which = naval_bomber when = now value = -60 }
command = { type = build_time which = dive_bomber when = now value = -60 }

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by danielwww
I've made some simular changes:
1/ decreased building time for land and air units.
2/ raised the default organization values, gives german a bit lower advantage, and the fight is longer and gives more casualty. 3/ Increased the air-defense for all land units.
4/ Moved the Russian capital back to the Urals, because when you loose your capital you loose all your IC (bug), and cant build more units/ and supplies.


command = { type = build_time which = infantry when = now value = -40 }

You guys need to be very careful about things like this.

The infantry command here, for example, now means that a regular infantry unit takes 50 days to produce. A militia unit takes 44.

 

[unmerged(11593)]

I agree with bolt, the balance can be distorted easily by editing, but for me this is just to see if the game can work and if it is only being held back by lack of ic's or units.

Btw i reduced all army/naval/air units except missles and nukes by the same amount of time (1/3) so there should still be the same differetial between each unit type.

Anyway I have ran another force comparison from scratch and heres how it went (All figures are total units in the selected arm) -

Army
---------
Jan 36/37/38/39/40
-------------------------


France 46/41/48/55/21

Germany 40/54/74/93/126

Italy 66/66/66/66/52

Japan 35/36/58/72/86

Russia 43/65/85/124/138

UK 32/38/52/71/70

USA 5/36/82/109/130

Navy
-------
Jan 36/37/38/39/40
-------------------------

France 37/34/33/33/33

Germany 17/17/23/30/31

Italy 52/40/41/42/20

Japan 63/63/56/54/80

Russia 35/35/35/35/35

UK 98/97/97/99/93

USA 82/82/95/125/158 (About a third are transports)


Airforce
----------
Jan 36/37/38/39/40
-------------------------

France 8/15/16/18/01

Germany 9/18/24/30/42

Italy 12/15/19/24/27

Japan 7/18/27/36/41

Russia 12/23/31/44/39

UK 11/21/29/38/37

USA 7/19/39/60/74


The game went like this Japan invaded china in '37 and annexed it in 38, Also dow Holland and started taking pacific provinces (This continued until I stopped playing)

In Feb '39 Germany/Italy/Hungary/Slovakia/Argentina declared war on UK/France/Belg/Lux/Holland/Commonwealth.

April '39 Poland joins allies, Japan joins Axis

May 39' Germany annexed Poland.

Early July '39 European Dutch provinces fell (One battle had 32 axis divisions forcing the surrender of 20 odd dutch!!)

Late July '39 European Belgian provinces fell/Romania joined axis.

August '39 - Main french army (30 divs) fought and cornered in lille by German forces (35 divs) - French surrendered leaving 20 southern divisions fighting the itailians...

November '39 - Russia dow on finland. finland joins axis

December 29th Finland surrenders - gives disputed provinces to russia after russian offensive including 40 divs and 15-20 air squadrons.

As things now stand france hasnt declared vichy and is cut up between germany and italy with about 2 european provinces left (Which the italians are mopping up) Russian and German forces are facing each other in numbers across the old polish/russian border but are not yet at war, Japan is still taking the dutch pacific provinces and it seems building up forces (Russia has a huge army in vladivostok against them!!).

Britain is losing all its african provinces but has a decent home army warding of invasion - including some recently shipped canadian divisions.

America has huge forces just waiting to get involved.....

OK, this sounds good but remember im playing hands free and not messing things up historically, But with extra IC's the a.i. seems to work better - it has no problem building units - I know I have cut supply costs, build times and increased the base ICs for all the majors quite drastically but it does look more WWII with large battles and huge armies.

Another plus point is that although the minors also build up their armies i dont think they stand a chance against the big boys constantly building up with higher tec armies.

Can somebody voulenteer to put these files on the net and ill e-mail them tonight.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Continue to run these test beds, they are invaluable.

I have decided to reduce the build time of infantry divisions by 15 days, reduce infantry division build cost by 1 IC. This means infantry divisions will take 70 days to produce (without a brigade, which adds 20 days. Militia units were slightly reduced in build time by 10 days to 34 days. Cost also shaved by 1.

Transports are also being tweaked based on Mutton's work.

The ai and inc file changes should provide more impetus to higher division counts by allocating somewhat more of the production pie to infantry without disturbing the historical unit type distribution ratio or historical balance.

 

[Jon Shafer]

DAVEH, could you possibly try this out while playing one of the major powers? Like I stated earlier, if the AI builds 100 divisions and you're able to build 200, that still doesn't solve the problem.

 

[unmerged(11593)]

Ill go and do that now trip...

 

[Jon Shafer]

Thanks. It'll be great if it works, but I'm iffy on this at best... best to make sure it helps, rather than get everyone's hopes up over something that in the end doesn't help anyways.

Have you seen Germany VS USSR yet? If so how did it turn out?

 

[dsteve3]

I hate to be dense, but I have to ask, just so I know what I'm doing...

The editor won't run on my machine. To edit these files, and reduce the cost, time to build, and supplies needed for the divs, which files to I open and what do I open them with, wordpad?

Please just give a brief run-down on HOW to make these modifications.

I will back everything up, I take full responsibility for my own actions (of course!) Just tell me how to implement this!

 

[unmerged(1345)]

Originally posted by DAVEH
Can somebody voulenteer to put these files on the net and ill e-mail them tonight.

Cheers,

Dave

Dave - great job so far, and everything looks promising.

Maybe just go ahead and email them to Bismarck's site. Just send the files with the installation instructions to:

writinguy@cogeco.ca

I'm sure he would like to host them.

Have fun!

 

[unmerged(11593)]

I have just attempted to play using my amended files and for some reason the IC (Which for germany i had at about 380 intentionally) has been doubled by the game. I wonder if this is because i increased province IC levels.

This has really p****d on my fire, so to speak , Also in the hands of game i was running the Axis finally attacked USSR in Jan '42 but the russians insisted on leaving 100+ divisions in the siberian regions against japan without actually using them, enabling the huge german invasion force (120+ divs and loads of planes) to easily overun the russians - although they still have a decent sized army they have a two front war against japan and germany both of which seem to take the initiative a lot more effectively.

I think that because of this IC problem i will put this one to bed for now (Changing back all IC's without altering manpower, infrastructure etc would take an age and has no guarantee of working) I hope I have suceeded in doing what I intended - To show that this game has great potential to evolve into what we all hoped for .

Anyway i'm going over to bolts site to test his changes - I dont think he's messed with the provinces so I would suggest his version will be more playable.

Cheers

Dave

 

[unmerged(9143)]

Originally posted by DAVEH
I have just attempted to play using my amended files and for some reason the IC (Which for germany i had at about 380 intentionally) has been doubled by the game. I wonder if this is because i increased province IC levels.

What exactly did you *think* would happen you increased the ICs in the provinces?

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

 

[unmerged(11593)]

Sorry, Dr Charm I did not explain correctly.

The increase I wanted is there (Original game German Start IC 315 - I had changed it to 366).

However once you start to build/reasearch the game gives you more IC on top of this up to around the 400 mark usually whilst still saying your max IC level is 366 .

 

[unmerged(9143)]

Now that is bizarre. Do these increases show up in the slider screen?

It would seem that the 'simplest' way around this would be to sit down and calculate what the max IC should be based on the IC of the held provinces. I say 'simplest' because I sure wouldn't want to do it

But is the reverse true? If you set the ICs at 366 and then take away all of the ICs from the provinces, what happens?

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

 

[unmerged(12148)]

USA needs to transport their shit over to europe and the pacific they literally are in the war, with 400 divisions sitting there defending the canadian border heh.

 

[unmerged(11593)]

Yes its on the sliders where you notice it - when you are allocating your IC's it would, in Germanys example, move from 366 (Correct) up to over 500!!!

It would be some job to change it all back - I would have to go through every province to check where ive changed things and there are around 2000!!!

Still there is nothing stopping me having another go now i know what to avoid although i'm going to give bolts changes a go first as i think he has been more methodical than me i.e. he knew what results he wanted (Improved historical a.i.) whereas i just wanted to test the a.i's potential historical or not.

 

[unmerged(12101)]

Originally posted by Seleucus
Actually the number of units looks promising.

If you would recall Germany had over 200 active divisions on the eve of operation barbossa. So 79 divisions in 1938 looks like a good start.





If I were to change anything it would be to make Manpower more important and be the limiting factor as opposed to IC for the number of divisions a country could field. For instance balance it out so that Germany could field at most say 4 million men in arms, with perhaps (estimate here) 300,000 recruits available every year. This would effectively limit Germany to 400 units, ( assuming each unit is about 10,000 men ) with about 30 units worth of replacement coming online every year. ( either in the form of reinforcing battered divisions, or in new units )

Rough estimates would be around
France 3 million
Britain 3 million
Germany 4-5 million
USA 6-8 million
Russia 8 million
Japan 4 million

Perhaps allow creating units beyond the manpower cap at the risk of losing IC production ( to simulate drafting everyone regardless of their skilled industrial positions, in times of crisis this occurred )


Obviously im using a historical viewpoint as opposed to one that worries about game balance ( though research the Germans have can probably overcome the 8 million man Russian army )


- Seleucus

Just wanted to point out that the soviet union did not have an overwhelming advantage in numbers over germany. The Soviets were however much better at massing there troops at key sectors along the eastern front. Examples Kursk, Stalingrad, Destruction of army group center. The Soviets by wars end were having a big problem with manpower shortages.