The .50 Cal Thread

[captinjoehenry]

Buffing 20mm is reasonable.

Generally speaking I like the killing power of vehicle MGs as is. In Wargame they were nearly useless, here they can actual play a support role effectively.

If anything must be done I would favor increasing the defense of infantry while pinned to reflect them taking cover and mitigate some casualties.

I agree with you. As it is I rather like the effectiveness of MGs it's just 20mm should be a notable step up from .50s against all targets and have more suppression. As it is the 20mms are already more lethal so if their impression is buffed to be above that of a .50 it would be pretty much spot on in my opinion.

 

[Max_Damage]

Are ypu sure 50 cal is stronger then 20 mm? I dont believe this.

 

[captinjoehenry]

Are ypu sure 50 cal is stronger then 20 mm? I dont believe this.

Well my 20mm half tracks tend to get panicked by .50 cal half tracks very very quickly well before my 20mm half track can kill them. Usually I just spam 20mms and it works but it is annoying to lose 1v1 with my 20mm verse a .50.

 

[Dongs Galore]

It's probably worth testing to confirm, both in terms of .50/20mm shooting at infantry and shooting at each other

Don't the scout cars with 20s have an AP value? They might be gimping their suppression firing that instead of HE.

 

[CyberianK]

20mm has AP

as for testing 12th SS has unvetted 222
should test that against unvetted halftrack 3rd armored LMG rifles get
both have armor 2 from front

I would participate in testing
20mm probably wins but results are interesting anyway

 

[FatRefrigerator]

20mm has AP

as for testing 12th SS has unvetted 222
should test that against unvetted halftrack 3rd armored LMG rifles get
both have armor 2 from front

I would participate in testing
20mm probably wins but results are interesting anyway

The SPW 222 at elite from the 21st Panzer is incredible. IDK what the stats are with the vet boost, but it annihilates halftracks and infantry and even unwary AT guns and field guns

 

[HaryPL]

First of all it would be reasonable to cut the 200m from the 0.50 while keeping it's accuracy as it is.
That may be a large part of problem when touching the subject of 0.50, especially in matter of it vs. infantry and vs. 7.62 halftracks - because not only it is more accurate than other HMGs BY DEFAULT, it also further benefits accuracy-wise from those 200m longer range when engaging in combat at shorter distances: doesn't it all mean that at 600m range the 0.50 has whooping 8 accuracy, not including vet/CV bonuses?

If IRC that above might be not so simple as there are now some modifiers to base accuracy depending on range? Then 0.50cal would gain further boost as 600m and less is less than 75% of max range and thus it gets better accuracy modifiers while all other MGs stay at their worst because 600 is their max? Thus when meeting any other HT at 600m and less the enemy 7.62 HT is utterly stunned and infantry massacred while 0.50 HT and it's squad is 'only' half-harmed?

That could also explain the 0.50 ridiculous effectiveness at AAA and why often HT/Tanks/BeuteSherman gets more aircraft kills than dedicated AAA?

 

[FatRefrigerator]

First of all it would be reasonable to cut the 200m from the 0.50 while keeping it's accuracy as it is.
That may be a large part of problem when touching the subject of 0.50, especially in matter of it vs. infantry and vs. 7.62 halftracks - because not only it is more accurate than other HMGs BY DEFAULT, it also further benefits accuracy-wise from those 200m longer range when engaging in combat at shorter distances: doesn't it all mean that at 600m range the 0.50 has whooping 8 accuracy, not including vet/CV bonuses?

If IRC that above might be not so simple as there are now some modifiers to base accuracy depending on range? Then 0.50cal would gain further boost as 600m and less is less than 75% of max range and thus it gets better accuracy modifiers while all other MGs stay at their worst because 600 is their max? Thus when meeting any other HT at 600m and less the enemy 7.62 HT is utterly stunned and infantry massacred while 0.50 HT and it's squad is 'only' half-harmed?

That could also explain the 0.50 ridiculous effectiveness at AAA and why often HT/Tanks/BeuteSherman gets more aircraft kills than dedicated AAA?

You see .50cals getting plane kills because you can have 20 of them out on the field but you only have like 4-6 Bofors

 

[I WUB PUGS]

The SPW 222 at elite from the 21st Panzer is incredible. IDK what the stats are with the vet boost, but it annihilates halftracks and infantry and even unwary AT guns and field guns

Yeah that thing rocks. To be fair, I've had a ton of success with the 20mm's, a lot better at killing vehicles whereas the .50's just suppress from what I've seen.

FLAVOR I guess.

 

[CyberianK]

Whats also a factor is what while Sdkfz have between 200 and 300 ammo total split equally between HE and AP the 50cal halftracks have 1000 ammo with both weapons having about the same ROF.
The split actually makes the ammo situation even worse.

 

[Rojan]

Yeah that thing rocks. To be fair, I've had a ton of success with the 20mm's, a lot better at killing vehicles whereas the .50's just suppress from what I've seen.

FLAVOR I guess.

While I would be all in favor of the flavor statement if it was something like German 13mm's since they are more similar to the .50 cal than the 20mm, I can't help but stay puzzled at the superior suppression mechanics of something that is inferior in comparison to the 20mm. An autocannon slinging HE shells should suppress and kill better than a .50 cal. Overall it seems like there is a general consensus to slightly buff the 20mm. I think this would be a great idea to just give it a leg up against the .50 cal.

I think the next issue that should be looked at is the issue that Uncle Joe talked about. I really agree with the notion that the mounted machine guns on vehicles seem to be inhumanely good at what they do. I am 100% on board with tailoring back efficiency across the board for these guns.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Don't take my AP from the 20mm though, please.....

 

[Rojan]

Don't take my AP from the 20mm though, please.....

No way! They should keep it.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

While I would be all in favor of the flavor statement if it was something like German 13mm's since they are more similar to the .50 cal than the 20mm, I can't help but stay puzzled at the superior suppression mechanics of something that is inferior in comparison to the 20mm. An autocannon slinging HE shells should suppress and kill better than a .50 cal. Overall it seems like there is a general consensus to slightly buff the 20mm. I think this would be a great idea to just give it a leg up against the .50 cal.

I think the next issue that should be looked at is the issue that Uncle Joe talked about. I really agree with the notion that the mounted machine guns on vehicles seem to be inhumanely good at what they do. I am 100% on board with tailoring back efficiency across the board for these guns.

But ROF.....

20mm isn't exactly like you're slinging stuff from an AGS17 or MK19. The ROF matters a lot because the .50 while not sending small HE shells, its bursting through masonry and anything else. It isn't some joke of a round by any means. So ROF is something that really needs to be taken into account.




And the counter to the HT's with .50's is that sweet sweet AP ammo.

 

[FatRefrigerator]

While I would be all in favor of the flavor statement if it was something like German 13mm's since they are more similar to the .50 cal than the 20mm, I can't help but stay puzzled at the superior suppression mechanics of something that is inferior in comparison to the 20mm. An autocannon slinging HE shells should suppress and kill better than a .50 cal. Overall it seems like there is a general consensus to slightly buff the 20mm. I think this would be a great idea to just give it a leg up against the .50 cal.

I think the next issue that should be looked at is the issue that Uncle Joe talked about. I really agree with the notion that the mounted machine guns on vehicles seem to be inhumanely good at what they do. I am 100% on board with tailoring back efficiency across the board for these guns.

This is because the 20mm is firing AP shells, but with a high enough ROF to be pretty deadly to soft targets. Hence the shared ammo pool.

Don't take my AP from the 20mm though, please.....

MY HUMBER FEELS OTHERWISE

 

[Graphic]

Buff the 20mm units that are underperforming, there's not many of them. If you nerf .50s you make probably 100 units worse.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

Buff the 20mm units that are underperforming, there's not many of them. If you nerf .50s you make probably 100 units worse.

+1 HE and call it a day?

 

[Paper_hat]

Honestly, I am very skeptical of the arguments I am seeing in this thread. Compared to the 50 cal the 20mm has the same range, the same accuracy, a similar rate of fire, 2 extra HE and an AP value of 4 and every vehicle that has the 20mm also comes with an mg 34 as well so how can it be worse? The SDKFZ 250/9 costs the same as a 50 cal jeep.

Veterancy is the only thing I can think of that would allow a 50 cal half track to defeat a 20mm one, but comparing a vet 2 unit to a vet 0 unit isn't really fair especially since, as some people have noted, the elite SPW 222 is godly.

If people still want to say that the 50 cal is vastly outperforming the 20mm then I want to see some proof instead of more annoying anecdotes.

 

[Rojan]

But ROF.....

20mm isn't exactly like you're slinging stuff from an AGS17 or MK19. The ROF matters a lot because the .50 while not sending small HE shells, its bursting through masonry and anything else. It isn't some joke of a round by any means. So ROF is something that really needs to be taken into account.




And the counter to the HT's with .50's is that sweet sweet AP ammo.

The problem is for every one 20mm gun I can field the Allies field about ten .50 cals. What you're saying is right about the ROF, though. I understand.

 

[Graphic]

The problem is for every one 20mm gun I can field the Allies field about ten .50 cals.

That's the way it was. Do you want fantasy 20mm turrets on German tanks and halftracks or what?