The .50 Cal Thread

[Rojan]

With some discussion stirring about the Allies .50 cal machine guns on the forums I figured I might as well make this thread that I had been thinking about making for a while now. It seems to be the case that with the .50 cal machine guns modeled in game they have a bit too much suppression in comparison to the other weapons in the game of similar roles. The thing that immediately comes to mind is the M5A1 HT with the fifty against something like a Sdkfz. with a 20mm. If both engage at equal times then the M5A1 wins nearly every time when it comes to morale. If the .50 cal is going to be so potent a weapon when it comes to suppression then there are two options we should look at:

i. Think about upping the suppression potency of similar weapons so that they actually mimic their real world counterpart.
ii. Tailoring back the .50 cal so that it is more in tune with weapons of a similar role.

Now while I do not know how the game developers a lot suppression values there can still nonetheless be some possible tweaking made to see if we can bring this weapon system more in line. I do not want to see it rendered useless, but as it stands it is by far superior to things that should otherwise outclass it by a bit (i.e. the 20mm).

 

[captinjoehenry]

Personally I think if 20mms were made better than a .50 at suppression that would fix it in my book as it really doesn't make sense that a 20mm autocannon firing explosive rounds at something has much less suppression than a 12.7mm solid shot just hitting the ground or your target.

 

[FatRefrigerator]

With some discussion stirring about the Allies .50 cal machine guns on the forums I figured I might as well make this thread that I had been thinking about making for a while now. It seems to be the case that with the .50 cal machine guns modeled in game they have a bit too much suppression in comparison to the other weapons in the game of similar roles. The thing that immediately comes to mind is the M5A1 HT with the fifty against something like a Sdkfz. with a 20mm. If both engage at equal times then the M5A1 wins nearly every time when it comes to morale. If the .50 cal is going to be so potent a weapon when it comes to suppression then there are two options we should look at:

i. Think about upping the suppression potency of similar weapons so that they actually mimic their real world counterpart.
ii. Tailoring back the .50 cal so that it is more in tune with weapons of a similar role.

Now while I do not know how the game developers a lot suppression values there can still nonetheless be some possible tweaking made to see if we can bring this weapon system more in line. I do not want to see it rendered useless, but as it stands it is by far superior to things that should otherwise outclass it by a bit (i.e. the 20mm).

They should remove the M2 from the game. It's out of time frame.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

What are the rates of fire? Reload times?

Those mean more than simple caliber.

 

[Rojan]

Personally I think if 20mms were made better than a .50 at suppression that would fix it in my book as it really doesn't make sense that a 20mm autocannon firing explosive rounds at something has much less suppression than a 12.7mm solid shot just hitting the ground or your target.

I tend to agree with you on this. I think the suppression for the 20mm is simply lacking. If I march infantry into fifty fifty cals I deserve to be shredded, but they deserve the same if they walk into a bunch of MG42's and 20mm's. Right now the fifty does this much more effeciently.

 

[captinjoehenry]

What are the rates of fire? Reload times?

Those mean more than simple caliber.

I would agree with you if autocannons did not shoot explosive rounds. Autocannon explosive rounds should be far more suppressive and lethal than any sort of solid mg bullet. As to be frank 20mm HE or any sort of autocannon HE absolutely destroys infantry and is far more scary than just solid mg bullets.

 

[Rojan]

What are the rates of fire? Reload times?

Those mean more than simple caliber.

I understand that those are very important factors in this discussion but as it stands it the .50 is outclassing things that fire HE shells at a rather quick rate.

 

[mitchverr]

Doesnt the 20mm fire AP rounds when firing on the halftrack?

 

[CyberianK]

some points from the Pz4 thread:

Beyond just the tank v tank comparison, I think people tend to overlook what the 200m difference means for light vehicles, guns and infantry. Even if it won't instakill tanks at max range, simply being able to shoot at any soft target in that extra 200m margin can be a really huge advantage.

Who told you that?

This guy?

There is no additional 20mm on the Pz4 turret though. There is a 50 cal on all the shermans and some other tanks. Why it matters is the axis have worse Infantry. In addition to that they also have worse MG options on their tanks. Almost all phase A Axis tanks have ONLY ONE 30cal. While almost all phase A Allies tank options have THREE 30cals or 30cal+50cal. Plus their 50 cal halftracks and better support options. This with their already better infantry options makes all Axis infantry, towed AT/AA and recon die even quicker and makes the infantry disadvantage even greater.
50 cals matter because their range makes scattered groups of tanks and vehicles support each other more deadly and also reach AT/vehicles better plus the AA advantage where Allies is already way ahead without 50 cals anyway.

The multiple MGs on Allied vehicles (well, really all vehicles) are extremely over-modeled. The 50cal requires the TC to be exposed (but he isn't the in the game), the Co-ax requires the gunner to not be paying attention to scanning for other threats or fighting the main armament, and the bow-mounted MG often would mean that the driver isn't in position to well...drive.

The fact that all the MGs and the main gun pour out fire instantly and constantly is a gross exaggeration of their power and it's reflected in the way infantry evaporate when a few of these vehicles are around. The game needs some more abstractions to bring them down to a more acceptable level....

I think 50cals are just one of the tiny things making Allies rule supreme
Sure they have to be there and its OK if they are good after all the weapon is a mainstay in warfare for almost 100 years now. But at least it should be included in the point cost fairly.

 

[Rojan]

Doesnt the 20mm fire AP rounds when firing on the halftrack?

I believe it does.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

While 50cals are probably the biggest offenders, all vehicle mount MGs are over-modeled at the moment.

Simply identifying and tracking a small target through vision blocks (especially as the vehicle and targets move) is difficult enough. But instantly and constantly doing it makes a mockery of 'realistic combat behavior'. And that issue is pervading across the game mechanics which in turn is leading to the balance issues that are presenting themselves in the game.

 

[_Sev_]

The 20mm lack in performance big time.
I have the feeling that eugen balanced the MGs with no correlation to the bigger cannons otherwise there is no explanation that a MG on a AA mount:

has the same accuracy as the KwK 30 L55 in a weapon mount with optic:

And for the comparison, the German 20mm round is the 20x138B

Atm it feels like 80% of the 20mm ammo is wasted because of the RoF, instead it should fire fast half auto and therefore finding the target faster instead of spray and pray.
Vehicles using it like the 222 and 250/9 are just surpressed by Half tracks they should easily delete since they had this 20mm to fight exactly these targets.

 

[fightinheckfish]

.50 cal works real well with API. You don't really aim it as much as you watch tracers and walk it in.

Almost works better on a flex mount really.

 

[captinjoehenry]

.50 cal works real well with API. You don't really aim it as much as you watch tracers and walk it in.

Almost works better on a flex mount really.

Still though a sighted gun on a full blown weapons mount will be more accurate and much more stable. Not to mention 20mm rounds I believe tended to have tracers as well.

 

[Gethsemani]

They should remove the M2 from the game. It's out of time frame.

It was introduced in 1933 and was employed by all branches of the US armed forces by the time they entered the war.

As for the 20mm, I think that they could probably use a slight suppression buff. The caveat is that they are already fine infantry murdering machines and they can shred lightly armored vehicles. Buff them just a little too much and they run the risk of becoming way too good.

 

[FatRefrigerator]

It was introduced in 1933 and was employed by all branches of the US armed forces by the time they entered the war.

Did you really take me seriously

 

[mitchverr]

Also, shouldnt peeps thank their lucky stars the .50cal doesnt have AP on top of that?

But yeah, just give the 20mm a lil buff.

 

[_Sev_]

.50 cal works real well with API. You don't really aim it as much as you watch tracers and walk it in.

Almost works better on a flex mount really.

i worked with the cal.50 myself i know, but even then your average 50 to 100 round belt goes out very fast leaving less ammo for the target before reloading, but thats not my point otherwise the MG 34 and 42 would have an even higher accuracy due more tracers in the air.
I guess that as i said eugen did not correlate the MGs acc to the bigger cannons and the 20mm is neither and hangs in an strange spot where it is underperforming. The reason the Germans hammered it on so many vehicles was not only AA defense but to kill light armored vehicles, ATGs and with the HE round infantry. atm it can only do the last good since the vehicles using it are surpressed so fast and easily there is not really a firefight but almost instantly they are in reverse because of the cal.50 spam while it should be superior in a firefight.

Still though a sighted gun on a full blown weapons mount will be more accurate and much more stable. Not to mention 20mm rounds I believe tended to have tracers as well.

yes they had, they had tracers and for the HE even tracer plus a impact light detonator to ease the aiming.

 

[Dongs Galore]

Buffing 20mm is reasonable.

Generally speaking I like the killing power of vehicle MGs as is. In Wargame they were nearly useless, here they can actual play a support role effectively.

If anything must be done I would favor increasing the defense of infantry while pinned to reflect them taking cover and mitigate some casualties.

 

[_Sev_]

Buffing 20mm is reasonable.

Generally speaking I like the killing power of vehicle MGs as is. In Wargame they were nearly useless, here they can actual play a support role effectively.

If anything must be done I would favor increasing the defense of infantry while pinned to reflect them taking cover and mitigate some casualties.

That would be nice too, i agree. The ATGs should also be a bit more resistant against LONG RANGE MG fire especialy from the front, the vehicle surpression should be toned down a bit, at least for armored vehicles.