The 43 trade thieving princes of the HRE.

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Autoclave

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We all know how powerful lightship spam in end nodes is. Who has more ships, gets a bigger piece of the pie. All this massive trade power then gets propagated in upstream nodes to suck the nodes dry. But at least you could DoW your opponent using Trade CB, kill his navy, force him to share trade power. It's something that you could proactively engage.

And then you have inland nodes, where the current formula favors multiple small nations over a big one in order to pull the trade downstream.

Your provincial trade power means nothing when you are facing 20+ merchants from HRE princes, most of them armed with trade ideas and together mounting a massive trade power with the inland node steering bonus.

I cannot get arround the concept that multiple smaller nations should be able to pull a greater total amount of money than a single big one.
As princess begin to cannibalize each other, you will notice how they are able to pull less from nodes outside of the HRE.

My recent experience with Venice has lead me to believe that Constatinople, despite not being an end node, does have some serious advantages over Venice.
The problem is Ragusa and it's connection to Wien, which is an inland node. A dozen of HRE princess will pull the trade to Wien easily. You will need to park half of your naval force limits in order to be able to steer half of it towards Venice, your home node.

Steering from Wien -> Venice is a futile attempt at best. You could even conquer the entire austria and you would still be lacking money.


The same HRE princess will have less power to steer from Constatinople -> Ragusa however. Because it's not an inland node and it's not being steered towards an inland node either.
This makes the swarming with merchants tactic less useful for HRE members as they don't have lightships to in mediteranean.

As I said, i cannot get my head around the idea that multiple small nations should wield a greater trade power than a big one. It just doesn't make any sense.
It's like if all the 50 states of USA where separate countries and they managed to do better economically than unified USA.
 

bbqftw

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confirming ragusa is a complete shitshow and is why the 3 other end nodes are miles better than Venice. Imagine if there was a node connection to an inland that exited out of Lubeck *shivers*

Still, there are measures you can take. At extremely high trade power multipliers (via merchant transfers, mostly) you actually want to use trade ships in Venice and rely on propagation to pull trade out of Wien and Ragusa, it will actually be more efficient than putting lights on Ragusa itself.
 

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For some reason,even though I control ninety percent if the Ragusa trade node,built all high level trade buildings all over the area and have it patrolled by 90+ trade ships!My trade power is only around forty percent.This is ridiculous.
 

DominusNovus

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I don't even bother when I'm in that neck of the woods. I just collect all my trade in Constantinople and will continue to do so until they figure out a way to balance Ragusa and other inland trade routes.
 

Autoclave

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After some more tinkering i think i found a solution:
Main port in Venice.
Steer Aleppo -> Alexandria -> Venice.
Collect in Constatinople.
This way constatinople will have less incoming trade from aleppo and alexandria (if you defeat ottomans and mamluks, should be easy) , and will bleed less to ragusa.

Basically i rerouted stuff arround ragusa, because its a cursed trade node.
Oh, btw!
Hansa with plutocratic and trade ideas has more trade power in wien than austria! An entire country with provinces vs a merchant only :)
 

waddles

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After some more tinkering i think i found a solution:
Main port in Venice.
Steer Aleppo -> Alexandria -> Venice.
Collect in Constatinople.
This way constatinople will have less incoming trade from aleppo and alexandria (if you defeat ottomans and mamluks, should be easy) , and will bleed less to ragusa.

Basically i rerouted stuff arround ragusa, because its a cursed trade node.
Oh, btw!

Hansa with plutocratic and trade ideas has more trade power in wien than austria! An entire country with provinces vs a merchant only :)

If you collect in Constantinople (or anywhere in addition to your trade capital) you miss out on a pretty big bonus:

From 1.8 patch notes:
If you don't collect trade anywhere else, your tradepower in your tradecapital grows by up to 10% per merchant active transferring trade, pending your relative power in the node that merchant is in

Even ignoring merchants from trade companies, this is a big bonus to forfeit. As said above, all the light ships should be in Venice anyway under the current mechanics.

I completely agree that a bunch of one-province minors should not have greater pull than an expanded Hansa (masters of trade!) owning those same provinces. The Ragusa node is especially irritating thanks to HRE minors.
 

ahyangyi

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As I said, i cannot get my head around the idea that multiple small nations should wield a greater trade power than a big one. It just doesn't make any sense.
It's like if all the 50 states of USA where separate countries and they managed to do better economically than unified USA.

Well, in EU4 term it does make sense. Multiple small nations have lots of monarch power, lots of manpower and much more tax than one big nation. It's just that trade is no exception.
 

Freudia

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As I said, i cannot get my head around the idea that multiple small nations should wield a greater trade power than a big one. It just doesn't make any sense.

Base merchant power combined with a lot of small nations disagrees with you. And that makes sense. They're collectively overpowering your trade power with theirs.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't see this as a problem? Venice still routinely builds way over their forcelimits in my games, meaning the node still has a hell of a lot of money.
 

ChildeR

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As I said, i cannot get my head around the idea that multiple small nations should wield a greater trade power than a big one. It just doesn't make any sense.

In the real world, smaller nations usually have imports and exports be a larger share of their GDP than large ones.

That aside, it makes sense for game balance that trade – the only thing not directly related to number of provinces owned – allows small nations to compete above their weight.
 

greendevil

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All those small HRE countries transferring power in Ragusa are OP as hell.

Merchant present bonus + Income bonanza bonus (happens AT LEAST to 3 or 4 countries at once in the node) + Inland steering node = more than half of the trade from Ragusa is steered away, even if you as Venice (or anyone else for the matter) completely control the node and the Adriatic Sea.

And it ends up feeding Lubeck or English Channel. It's ridiculous.
 

greendevil

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Base merchant power combined with a lot of small nations disagrees with you. And that makes sense. They're collectively overpowering your trade power with theirs.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't see this as a problem? Venice still routinely builds way over their forcelimits in my games, meaning the node still has a hell of a lot of money.

It's unrealistic for them to have that much trade power in the node, and besides it makes for bad gameplay since they have to do nothing to achieve that.
 

darthfanta

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If you collect in Constantinople (or anywhere in addition to your trade capital) you miss out on a pretty big bonus:

From 1.8 patch notes:
If you don't collect trade anywhere else, your tradepower in your tradecapital grows by up to 10% per merchant active transferring trade, pending your relative power in the node that merchant is in

Even ignoring merchants from trade companies, this is a big bonus to forfeit. As said above, all the light ships should be in Venice anyway under the current mechanics.

I completely agree that a bunch of one-province minors should not have greater pull than an expanded Hansa (masters of trade!) owning those same provinces. The Ragusa node is especially irritating thanks to HRE minors.
When I made Venice my trade port of whatever that thing is called when I conquered the Adriatic coast as the ERE,I lost got far less trade money than I did when I collected money in Constantinople all thanks to the parasites.
 

ChildeR

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Making it so Ragusa isn't counted as inland should fix things somewhat.

It isn't inland. The mechanics that can help HRE princes are propagation from their inland node (worth only a few TP at Ragusa compared to no inland bonus) and "steering towards inland", which only merchant republics and those who choose trade ideas get.
 

Aries666

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In my opinion trade isnt right at the minute. Currently as Bengal I own everything from Persia to Korea yet I only make 40 in trade. The reason, Portugal has a chain of provinces through to Zanzibar allowing them to propagate power into Ceylon and Malacca without needing a single ship. When they showed up my trade income went from 100 to 40 and they control almost no provinces. This has made tiny Portugal the richest country in the world with an income of 450 whilst the combined income of China, se Asia, India, and Persia can only muster a paltry 350!
 

Autoclave

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If you collect in Constantinople (or anywhere in addition to your trade capital) you miss out on a pretty big bonus:

From 1.8 patch notes:
If you don't collect trade anywhere else, your tradepower in your tradecapital grows by up to 10% per merchant active transferring trade, pending your relative power in the node that merchant is in

Even ignoring merchants from trade companies, this is a big bonus to forfeit. As said above, all the light ships should be in Venice anyway under the current mechanics.

I completely agree that a bunch of one-province minors should not have greater pull than an expanded Hansa (masters of trade!) owning those same provinces. The Ragusa node is especially irritating thanks to HRE minors.

That is a great bonus which I used in my Denmark game collecting in Lubeck. Lubeck is easy because princes bring all the money nodes upstream of lubeck and then you use your naval force limits trade power propagation to bring all that money into lubeck.

Lubeck also has the advantage that you can easily form a massive chain:
India -> Gulf of Aden-> Eastern Africa (no need to control) -> Southern Africa (no need to control) -> Ivory Coast -> Carribean -> Cheasepeake -> St Lawrence -> Northern Sea -> Lubeck.
You only need to regularly trade CB and kill navies of portugal and spain.
 

bbqftw

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In my opinion trade isnt right at the minute. Currently as Bengal I own everything from Persia to Korea yet I only make 40 in trade. The reason, Portugal has a chain of provinces through to Zanzibar allowing them to propagate power into Ceylon and Malacca without needing a single ship. When they showed up my trade income went from 100 to 40 and they control almost no provinces. This has made tiny Portugal the richest country in the world with an income of 450 whilst the combined income of China, se Asia, India, and Persia can only muster a paltry 350!
are you not steering at malacca or something? trade propagation is not magical, they still need substantial power in zanzibar to pull trade from malacca.

Also, trade propagation from Zanzibar can't go to Ceylon.

The big ROTW problem for trade income is that you have to go trade ideas to get merchants to steer correctly as 2 is not sufficient in most cases. If you're western you get the entire trade ideas group for free (hello trade companies).
 

Klausewitz

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I think it makes sense.
Trade flows according to borders.
The single biggest problem and steering tool for trade in that age were tariffs.
And tariffs are levied by individual princes.
They simply slap enough tariffs on any trade going your way that merchants decide to not go there.