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I think the Oathbound should have been the main human race unlike the vanguards, cause to be honest the vanguards are pretty uninteresting for the "human race" unlike the oathbound who have a nice little twist to them. The Vanguards are so normal and mainstream for a sci-fi game


You have no idea how overdone oathbound is? Japans use mechs way too freaking much. Its gotten to the point where i'm basically allergic to anything that is all about mechs and gundams. Tired of angsty newtype teen slaughtering enemies by bazillions.

If it was the oathbound and not vanguards on day 1 i would've never picked this game up in the first place.
 
Guys, literally every sci-fi trope is overused at this point. Additionally in the last games I played I've seen:
- sentient trees that join planets together with gigantic root systems
- space musroom people
- cosmic walruses
- birds in samurai armor
- pacifist robots
- pirate cats
- humanoid dragons that are diplomats
- post humans that are now literal ghosts in walking armor
- post humans that are now vampires in armor
- a human who made an entire civilization from his clones
- sentient amoeba
- furries of all kinds
- cosmic snails or calmary
- sentient rocks
...and the list can go on

Now try to be original and not "boring"...

Games usually use tropes that are familiar to most people, as long as they have even the slightest hint of originality, it's good enough for me.
 
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Am I the only one who gets a sinister vibe from the ‘Watchers’....mysterious mask wearers that use entropy?

would be great if they made the watchers Artificial Intelligence/Synths. Then you have the noble paladins secretly controlled by the predictions of unfeeling machines.

makes headcannoning evil/practically brutal actrocities easier.
 
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While there's certainly a degree to which the Vanguard are probably not the most original race in Planetfall, I think there are two observations that offset this:

First, there is an advantage to the familiar. Most fantasy strategy games have a race/faction that largely maps to medieval Europe for this reason... unless it's explicitly inspired by a different region or time period, in which case there'll likely be a race/faction that largely maps to whatever the dominant style of warfare was in that region or time period. Similarly, science fiction settings usually have a race that is based off an extrapolation of whatever the modern military structure of the time was (it's starting to shift as drones and the like get introduced into modern militaries, so what you see now is different to what you'd see, say, when WH40K was in its inception). There is an advantage to having a 'familiar' race, both as an initial starter race for players to dip their toes in with before they go to something more exotic, and to provide a familiar baseline that the more exotic races can stand out from.

Second, I think one thing that needs to be considered with this sort of analysis is... are there aspects that make this "familiar" race also stand out among the other races in the setting? Do they have a unique playstyle, or are they just the 'jack of all trades' race?

In the case of the Vanguard, I think they do have a unique style. If we're to compare to WH40K, for instance, they're probably best compared to the Tau. For a start, they're the most ranged-oriented race in the game. Without secret techs, the only melee units they have are temporary summons such as Valkyries and Skirmish Drones. Every other race has something that's a melee option, and some have melee options at several tiers. Vanguard just has ranged units, and gets around cover, smoke fields, and the like by using area attacks and/or effects that boost accuracy like Targeting Field and Targeting Calibration, to be able to land hits anyway (markerlights anyone?).

A second aspect is that they can make heavy use of summons to boost their numbers. They have several tactical ops that summon things, the Engineer can deploy turrets, the Drone Carrier epitomises the principle by launching a near-constant stream of drones, and the PUG's ability to reset recharges means you can potentially get multiple summons without committing too heavily to it. Obviously, this isn't unique to the Vanguard, but it is something that I think the Vanguard are better equipped to take advantage of than any other race.
 
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Okay after some really good other opinions, that i can somewhat understand, i dont think the vanguards are terrible for playing or not ment to be in the game. I think the whole race would be better of being a relic that you could find in the anomalysites, but that isnt feasible anymore cause they are already in the game. (not that i wish for them to be erased from the game but there story would be much more dramatic when you could only find them in said sites).
From a playstyle perspective the vanguards have strong earlygame mods, acceptable commanders as heros and a nice tier 3 unit, which also suits as a mount. They have a nice arrangement of operations in and outside of combat. So they are a nice and comfy race to learn the game with and have potential to be super strong.
With that said, i dont dislike them from that perpective, but my gamer heart just cant stand basic humans in sci fi games. The humans in endless space 2 (which was indirectly mentioned some post earlier) were also my least favorite, because every other race was really cool and had some nice ideas behind and then "humans."
I would just wish that in the normal pool of sci fi races the humans are not treated like they need to be put in any game as a standard. But them in games like they are outsiders and give them some nice twists like being enslaved by aliens and then they managed to free them and are now on and on about enslaving other alien races with a everburning hatred in their hearts or beng foreced to leave the earth and at their way to another planet they were sucked in by a blackhole were they landed by a non physical being, whoose goal is to see the universe and explore it. so they formed a pack and let the space ghost in their bodys where they fusioned to a half ethereal being from that point on. Somewhat like that, not that it is unique but its at least more interesting than, " hey we kinda time traveled and here we are now"
 
I don't like playing as humans in almost every game too, but i still like vanguard, not my most liked but i like them nonetheless. Theme wise, i consider the vanguard spot on. Vanguard is meant to be more of a initial force deployed by nations (not just in any games, but also in real life military), before the main one, in this regard the vanguard actually is vanguard. It's reasonable that this type of forces don't get the fanciest equipment both in functionality and appearance. In planetfall, the paragon and/or autonom is probably the main forces
 
You guys are forgetting one thing: the versatality that Secret Techs bring to roleplaying in this game. Each turns even the "boring" Vanguard into something entirely dfferent. The idea was genius, and probably only time and resources held Triumph guys, becasue otherwise I think each faction would have more distinct differences per tech used, but unfortunately we only did recieve a few cosmetic variants of single units (which is still great, but could've been so much more). I mean, even though some of you already explained how Vanguard are not that generic as one would think, alas just thinking how much it would bring if actually enitre rooster was somewhat affected, unique abilities and such? Xenoplague soldiers with various tentacles, Drone Carriers spewing out pods of parasites, Walkers bombarding armies with pestilance bombs? But even with limited possibilities I for instance managed to create this Psynumbra Vanguard faction, playing which (with a little help of imagination and some color swapping) feels entirely different then playing as Promethean Vanguard for example...

Oh and @Draxynnic, thanks for reminding me that Vanguard actually does feel like playing T'au, something that came to my mind some tiem ago :D
 
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I think one thing to consider here is that different people have different preferences. Some people like championing the cause of (relatively) ordinary humans, others don't. Some people think cyberzombies are cool, others are unenthused. And so on.

The advantage of having 6+ races, though, is that the developers can aim to have a wide enough spread so that there's something for just about everyone. If there's one race that you're not overly excited about, there's probably another that's more to your liking.

I don't like playing as humans in almost every game too, but i still like vanguard, not my most liked but i like them nonetheless. Theme wise, i consider the vanguard spot on. Vanguard is meant to be more of a initial force deployed by nations (not just in any games, but also in real life military), before the main one, in this regard the vanguard actually is vanguard. It's reasonable that this type of forces don't get the fanciest equipment both in functionality and appearance. In planetfall, the paragon and/or autonom is probably the main forces
The Autonom fluff indicates that they were something that developed after the Collapse, although the Justiciars were something that were part of the standard forces beforehand. Paragons representing the 'standard' Star Union military is probably fairly on the money, although I suspect they also had some of the stuff we now associate with the Vanguard as well. Tellingly, there are a few times during the campaign where "Vanguard" forces seem to have been used as a stand-in for a regular garrison force or as the defence militia for 'regular' human settlements (as opposed to Paragon or Syndicate or Spacers or whatever) that survived the Fall.

It's also worth noting that while most of the other races developed (or were emancipated) after the fall of the Star Union, the Syndicate were around back then (ironically enough, in fact, the Syndicate can be said to be the group that survived the Fall the best). Now, we don't know how much of their military technology and structure was around back then and how much has been developed since, but it's possible that at least some of their tech is derived from regular Star Union military technology... especially if the houses controlled portions of the Star Union's military-industrial complex.
 
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The Autonom fluff indicates that they were something that developed after the Collapse, although the Justiciars were something that were part of the standard forces beforehand. Paragons representing the 'standard' Star Union military is probably fairly on the money, although I suspect they also had some of the stuff we now associate with the Vanguard as well. Tellingly, there are a few times during the campaign where "Vanguard" forces seem to have been used as a stand-in for a regular garrison force or as the defence militia for 'regular' human settlements (as opposed to Paragon or Syndicate or Spacers or whatever) that survived the Fall.

It's also worth noting that while most of the other races developed (or were emancipated) after the fall of the Star Union, the Syndicate were around back then (ironically enough, in fact, the Syndicate can be said to be the group that survived the Fall the best). Now, we don't know how much of their military technology and structure was around back then and how much has been developed since, but it's possible that at least some of their tech is derived from regular Star Union military technology... especially if the houses controlled portions of the Star Union's military-industrial complex.

I agree with the paragon and the vanguard, the autonom, i don't know much about their lore aside from the vanilla campaign. The vanguard in planetfall is indeed equipped with equipment far better than what vanguard forces (in real life military) usually has. Normally if planetfall vanguard is truly a vanguard type of forces, they won't have access to T4, at best it's the laser tank. That the vanguard have access to walker and the carrier seems that planefall vanguard is more than just your usual vanguard. It's like the vanguard is the imperial guard (from WH40k), while the paragon is the space marine.
 
I'm actually not sure about the idea that vanguard forces have worse equipment. Often, vanguards are regarded as something of an elite force, since they're often the ones that make contact with the enemy first. (Mind you, it's also possible for the vanguard to be the troops regarded as expendable, such as Hastati.) Sometimes they might have lighter equipment, on the basis that this allows them to fall back and report to command if they meet something they can't handle. Sometimes they're equipped with the heaviest and best equipment, on the basis that they're the breakthrough force and those that follow are likely to be facing a weakened opposition on the flanks (the Blitzkreig principle).

All of which falls down with the Vanguard, since the principle there is that they're the ONLY ones on the planet until they get a new Void Gate up and running. Ultimately, it depends on tactical doctrine, but since the Planetfall Vanguard are expected to operate independently, there's no strict reason why they should have worse equipment than the core forces, unless it's to make sure that the core forces can put down rebellious Vanguard if necessary. What might be a consideration with the Vanguard is that their equipment needs to be more easily maintained (either in the field or within the capabilities of a freshly established colony) which might explain some of the equipment differences. Lasers and relatively low-tech weapons (you know, stuff that's not far from what we call modern nowadays) might fit that mark where arc weaponry and complex cybernetics does not.

Autonom origins are hinted at in their unit descriptions. Something happened around the time of the Collapse that caused a variety of servitor droids to develop the 'Autonom' identity and start picking up weapons. Sentinels, for instance, are essentially armed Roombas (okay, the actual directive was 'polish floors', but close enough), while Monitors were medical bots.
 
It's pretty clear from the fluff that vanguard forces, by the standard of the star union, were considered pretty weak and expendable, though by the standards of post collapse world they are relatively elite. Most paragon units are comparable to vanguard troops even after centuries of decay, and the vanguard lack standard access to more exotic star union technologies like the promethean gear, void tech, or RPR units.

This makes sense, in that the star union had no credible enemies by the time of it's collapse, thus the military was structured to promote internal stability. Thus the frontier forces were handed "good enough" equipment to survive on hostile planets until the gate was up, but not nearly enough to challenge the paragons or other elite units if a vanguard commander decided to get ideas above their station. It's just that "good enough" by star union standards is impressive compared to military forces developed from star union civilian tech, like the dvar or amazons, or scavenged together like the assembly.
 
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It's pretty clear from the fluff that vanguard forces, by the standard of the star union, were considered pretty weak and expendable, though by the standards of post collapse world they are relatively elite. Most paragon units are comparable to vanguard troops even after centuries of decay, and the vanguard lack standard access to more exotic star union technologies like the promethean gear, void tech, or RPR units.

This makes sense, in that the star union had no credible enemies by the time of it's collapse, thus the military was structured to promote internal stability. Thus the frontier forces were handed "good enough" equipment to survive on hostile planets until the gate was up, but not nearly enough to challenge the paragons or other elite units if a vanguard commander decided to get ideas above their station. It's just that "good enough" by star union standards is impressive compared to military forces developed from star union civilian tech, like the dvar or amazons, or scavenged together like the assembly.

Well said there.
 
I disagree. Some decay is evident in Paragon units, but some of it is mental, and those that are still fighting as soldiers are those that are still in decent condition. I'd say that a Paragon unit which is Overcharged is probably a reasonable ballpark for where the pre-Cataclysm Paragon forces would have been. Which is a bit stronger than the Vanguard equivalents, to be sure - but that's probably because they are being equipped with the very best that the Star Union has to offer no matter how maintenance-heavy it is. So when the logistics chain required to keep Paragon units breaks down, the Paragons themselves inevitably start to break down (with the caveat that it's impressive enough that there are Paragons that have been around since the Cataclysm without the benefit or cold sleep or relativistic time dilation). Vanguard forces, on the other hand, are intended to be able to operate independently of the wider Star Union logistics infrastructure for long periods of time. This is likely to result in compromises in performance.

(One could make a real-world comparison here between Western and Russian military equipment. Western equipment is usually made to eke out the last piece of performance, but usually relies on regular maintenance to keep functioning. Russian equipment, on the other hand, is usually built to tolerate much more misuse before it fails. Now, if you have the luxury of having the logistics and maintenance schedules to keep it working, Western hardware is usually technically better... but if you're going to be dropped on a foreign planet for a few years, you'd probably be willing to accept something being a little behind-the-curve in performance in exchange for remaining reliable even under those circumstances.)

It's certainly true that the Paragons regarded themselves as the elite of the Star Union, but I don't think there's any sense that what the Vanguard has was deliberately held back to keep them weak. They're given the equipment that suits the specific role they're given, and the Star Union was aware of the possibility of running into threats on frontier worlds, so they'll want to make sure that the exploratory forces have the greatest chance of success. At worst, there might be some budget limitations which wouldn't be applied to their own forces. There's no sense that the Vanguard as a whole were being kept down or disrespected for the work that they did. If anything, the campaign experience seems to point at the Vanguard being held in high regard and a great deal of trust by the Star Union (in part due to the Vanguard largely being recruited from people who have no remaining ties to civilian life).
 
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While the vanguard is not worse compared to paragon in terms of equipment. Their role is indeed spot on, as its name suggest, vanguard. Usually forces in vanguard or skirmisher (these two terms in essence have the same role), have a role of somewhat like a scout or heavy scout or expeditionary, these are range of the scout's equipment in regards to how better or fancier their given equipment is, the latter is the better. The vanguard is somewhat in the expeditionary range, as described in the game's lores. But still, they are still the first to advance in the star union military hierarchy, somewhat occupying as an acceptable loses if they die type of forces, compared to the paragons. Other imperial units, i mean units that have imperial tag in front of their names, like imperial behemoth tank have more in common with the paragon than the vanguard, the paragon is also regarded as the official imperial nobility or aristocracy (as described in game's lore).
 
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The imprtant thing to remember is that the entire star union military is deliberatly held back. Remember the fluff text on the vanguard trooper: a human military is used instead of robot forces because it is more palatable to the wider population, and encourages them to sympathise with the military, not because it is more effective. It is telling that the last time the union faced an existential threat, the heritors, they invested heavily in combat robots, with a wide mix of exotic technologies standard. Mothballing the RPRs was a decision putting domestic politics over pure military effectivness. If the star union faced another existential threat, I have no doubt that a new generation of combat robots would be the first response of C.O.R.E.

In that context, the fact that the vanguard have gear that is a cut below paragons looks less like a rational military decision and more like a political one. There are no threats to the star union, save for rebellion and civil war. Preventing this is the primary concern of the military. There is no reason to give hard to control frontier troops equipment any better than the cheapest gear that won't be overrun by the wildlife. Even the secret tech mechanics work with this interpretation. We see union era vanguard forces using one of synthesis, voidtech, or promethean gear. Why aren't all of these standard, or incorperated into the main vanguard lineup? Because they don't need to be, and it might make the vanguard a threat. Even the paragons don't have access to this equipment because they too need to prevented from growing too powerful.
 
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While the vanguard is not worse compared to paragon in terms of equipment. Their role is indeed spot on, as its name suggest, vanguard. Usually forces in vanguard or skirmisher (these two terms in essence have the same role), have a role of somewhat like a scout or heavy scout or expeditionary, these are range of the scout's equipment in regards to how better or fancier their given equipment is, the latter is the better. The vanguard is somewhat in the expeditionary range, as described in the game's lores. But still, they are still the first to advance in the star union military hierarchy, somewhat occupying as an acceptable loses if they die type of forces, compared to the paragons. Other imperial units, i mean units that have imperial tag in front of their names, like imperial behemoth tank have more in common with the paragon than the vanguard, the paragon is also regarded as the official imperial nobility or aristocracy (as described in game's lore).
Usually, sure, but there is an important distinction in that in historical terms a vanguard is usually only a few hours ahead of the main force, while in the case of the Vanguard, they're the only ones on the planet for an extended period. Strategically, they might be a scouting force, but tactically, they can't be equipped on the basis that they'll fall back to the main force on encountering any serious opposition. They ARE the main - in fact, the only - force on the planet until the Void Gate is set up. Regardless of the name, they're going to be set up as a conventional army - the distinction being that they're a conventional army that's operating light years away from home.

And that, I think, is the primary distinction with the Vanguard. They're what gets used for duties which can involve being isolated for long periods of time. It's worth keeping in mind that there is at least one instance in the campaign of a Vanguard force being used as a garrison force on a world that the people who sent them to it never wanted anything to come back from.

The imprtant thing to remember is that the entire star union military is deliberatly held back. Remember the fluff text on the vanguard trooper: a human military is used instead of robot forces because it is more palatable to the wider population, and encourages them to sympathise with the military, not because it is more effective. It is telling that the last time the union faced an existential threat, the heritors, they invested heavily in combat robots, with a wide mix of exotic technologies standard. Mothballing the RPRs was a decision putting domestic politics over pure military effectivness. If the star union faced another existential threat, I have no doubt that a new generation of combat robots would be the first response of C.O.R.E.
That's... kinda essentially what the Autonoms became in some campaign missions, although there are also Autonoms that are genuinely independent. With respect to the Reapers... I don't think they actually represent a step above what was otherwise available, but are instead an example of something that was specifically made to counter essence technology. Outside of that context, though, are the Reapers really that much more advanced than the PUGs and drones of the Vanguard.

In that context, the fact that the vanguard have gear that is a cut below paragons looks less like a rational military decision and more like a political one. There are no threats to the star union, save for rebellion and civil war. Preventing this is the primary concern of the military. There is no reason to give hard to control frontier troops equipment any better than the cheapest gear that won't be overrun by the wildlife. Even the secret tech mechanics work with this interpretation. We see union era vanguard forces using one of synthesis, voidtech, or promethean gear. Why aren't all of these standard, or incorperated into the main vanguard lineup? Because they don't need to be, and it might make the vanguard a threat. Even the paragons don't have access to this equipment because they too need to prevented from growing too powerful.
Here's the thing, though - you're assuming that the Star Union was assuming that the threats that the Vanguard would be facing would be mere wildlife. I don't think it was that complacent. It's pretty clear from the fluff that the Vanguard is expected to fight wars from time to time, and probably did in the initial subjugation of the Kir'ko.

With regard to secret tech gear - a lot of it is stuff that was being developed relatively recently when the Cataclysm hit, so it hasn't been fully integrated. And some of it is stuff that is specialised for dealing with specific threats. I'd also note that the reason why you normally see Vanguard using those techs is that the alternatives are the psychic techs and Xenoplague, and they usually didn't get dropped into the campaign without there being a reason why that commander was using that particular tech (a principle that applied to all races when it came to those techs, not just Vanguard).

Ultimately, though, the reason why it hasn't all been integrated fully is gameplay. Yeah, it's a copout, but in principle there's no reason why the army of the Elven Court in AoW3 couldn't be using every class except dreadnought, and an argument could be made even for that. In practice, this gets reflected by different leaders having different classes. Ultimately, what's probably really happening when a commander chooses a secret tech is that at some point they decided to specialise in a particular one, when previously they might have specialised in something different.
 
Usually, sure, but there is an important distinction in that in historical terms a vanguard is usually only a few hours ahead of the main force, while in the case of the Vanguard, they're the only ones on the planet for an extended period. Strategically, they might be a scouting force, but tactically, they can't be equipped on the basis that they'll fall back to the main force on encountering any serious opposition. They ARE the main - in fact, the only - force on the planet until the Void Gate is set up. Regardless of the name, they're going to be set up as a conventional army - the distinction being that they're a conventional army that's operating light years away from home.

And that, I think, is the primary distinction with the Vanguard. They're what gets used for duties which can involve being isolated for long periods of time. It's worth keeping in mind that there is at least one instance in the campaign of a Vanguard force being used as a garrison force on a world that the people who sent them to it never wanted anything to come back from.


That's why i said the vanguard has an expeditionary tier equipment for a military scout. That's why i compare the vanguard with imperial guard in WH40k. Both are self able forces that can hold their own for a long period of time. That means i agree with everything you said just now.
 
That's... kinda essentially what the Autonoms became in some campaign missions, although there are also Autonoms that are genuinely independent. With respect to the Reapers... I don't think they actually represent a step above what was otherwise available, but are instead an example of something that was specifically made to counter essence technology. Outside of that context, though, are the Reapers really that much more advanced than the PUGs and drones of the Vanguard.
Reapers certainly have some generally useful technologies that don't seem to have been used by the union much in the future besides the specific anti-esteq abilities, like the liquidator's neurotoxins, the culler's PsiTech, and the camouflage used by all of them. But it's more a question of role then technical advancement-the vanguard's robots are across the board relegated to support roles. As per their own fluff, this is a political decision. They could replace their infantry and combat vehicles with fully automated units, but don't, because having a human military as a glorified jobs program to get the unwashed masses off the streets and out of the core worlds is more important that whatever bit of utility the automated military would provide. After all, some refitted civilian robots, the autumn, can compete with actual military hardware well enough to be a major force. If the autonom were designed as a military force, they could be even more powerful.

Here's the thing, though - you're assuming that the Star Union was assuming that the threats that the Vanguard would be facing would be mere wildlife. I don't think it was that complacent. It's pretty clear from the fluff that the Vanguard is expected to fight wars from time to time, and probably did in the initial subjugation of the Kir'ko.

With regard to secret tech gear - a lot of it is stuff that was being developed relatively recently when the Cataclysm hit, so it hasn't been fully integrated. And some of it is stuff that is specialised for dealing with specific threats. I'd also note that the reason why you normally see Vanguard using those techs is that the alternatives are the psychic techs and Xenoplague, and they usually didn't get dropped into the campaign without there being a reason why that commander was using that particular tech (a principle that applied to all races when it came to those techs, not just Vanguard).

Ultimately, though, the reason why it hasn't all been integrated fully is gameplay. Yeah, it's a copout, but in principle there's no reason why the army of the Elven Court in AoW3 couldn't be using every class except dreadnought, and an argument could be made even for that. In practice, this gets reflected by different leaders having different classes. Ultimately, what's probably really happening when a commander chooses a secret tech is that at some point they decided to specialise in a particular one, when previously they might have specialised in something different.

Wildlife is a bit of hyperbole, obviously the vanguard don't need tanks and artillery pieces if that was all they were needed to fight against. But even the subjugation of the Kir'ko hasn't been presented as very one sided in the favour of the vanguard, and the kir'ko were missing a pretty significant portion of their planetfall era tech tree by their fluff. Defeating a very under equipped enemy doesn't mean the vanguard are the strongest force the star union could make them.
 
So basically we get the Archons back? Well... one can never have enough practice target i suppose :D

As always the NPC factions sound better than the main ones :)
The apostates rock :D

Archons in Gundams. Good idea, especially the whole "bond is strength" thing you find in every mecha anime.
However, as a mecha fan, I would love to see a few other tropes, like like transforming or combining mechs, or super prototypes heroes can unlock at very high levels.