Only if you include the light MG34/42s (no tripods)
2 heavy per company, 6 more at Battalion for 12 per Battalion.
2 Battalions per Regiment and 3 Regiments per Divisions for 12x2x3 = 72 heavy MG34/42 per division.
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The .30 cal machine guns teams should have the same range as the German Mg42/Mg34
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Only if you include the light MG34/42s (no tripods)
2 heavy per company, 6 more at Battalion for 12 per Battalion.
2 Battalions per Regiment and 3 Regiments per Divisions for 12x2x3 = 72 heavy MG34/42 per division.
That MG battalion is in addition to 8 Vickers per battalion, plus a bren per section. But, as I said, those formation assets were intended to be used en masse, and they were, rather than penny parceled out to buff up integral weapons. The difference being that using a company of guns to sweep a grid square is a lot more useful than relying on the bulk of the guns to cover a company frontage. Work out the math...that's 108 Vickers per division in addition to the 36 brens per battalion. Those divisional assets tended to be doled out 1MG coy x Inf bde.
Keep in mind those company MG34/42s were bipod mounted, rather than tripod mounted with serious ammunition stocks as their first line ration.
Brassing up a fixed position (house, fortification, tree line) with MG fire to allow a rifle section to move; a sustained, 450rpm steady is going suppress the defenders as effectively as 900rpm (or even 1200rpm) bursts.
Likewise, your assumption of a 4-second bursts for the Vickers is particularly silly when assuming you're stopping a company or even platoon attack. You'd not fire a 4 second burst. You don't need to, the barrel won't overheat. Yes, if you're engaging point targets, 450rpm and sustained fire is absolutely inferior (hence why 600rpm and aircooled barrels is standard now, and why all section MGs are air-cooled), but if you're engaging an area target, being able to put a steady 450rpm into that area target, each minute, every minute, until the gun runs out of ammo or water, is going to produce good effect on target.
So, let's say 4 second burst, 30 rounds for the Vickers (as opposed to 40 for the M1919, 60 for the MG34 and 95 for the MG42). Of course, the lower RoF does mean lower dispersion for the gun (as does the lower barrel temperature), something I note you carefully sidestep discussing. But (say we're discussing a platoon over a 100 metre frontage); yes, a bullet is only landing once every 3 metres of frontage, every four seconds. And every eight. And twelve. And sixteen.
Apparently, this won't produce suppression. Do you have any evidence to substantiate that?
...there are only 3 infantry companies in a German division?
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Not according to bayonet strength
72 heavies for german inf div. 36 vickers for british inf div.
Although it was different in a British motor battalion.
Edit:
British Tracer G Mark II had a burn distance of 1,000 yards (914 metres)
German S.m.K. L'spur had a burn distance of 800-1,000 metres
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What the hell is bayonet strength in relation to numbers of MG's in a Brit div?
As explained, each Brit line battalion had 8 Vickers...that's 9x8=72, then there's 36 for the for the MG Bn, that comes out to 108. 108>36, and 108>72. Tracer burnout is irrelevant when you are firing on co-ordinates, or have been trained how to use a gun with a gun sight, and have been trained in MG theory (yes, it is a real thing).
To give an idea of how it works, when the Australians cracked the Hindenburg line in 1918, the attack was planned to take a couple of minutes over 1.5 hours. The supporting MG's - battalion, brigade, divisional and corps assets - fired for the duration of the attack, without pause. German reports from survivors stated that the MG fire was totally disruptive, and caused far more casualties in the concrete bunkers than the artillery did, simply through pouring massed rounds through firing slits, and ricocheting around inside. Multiple guns on multiple angles swept the trenchlines and communication trenches, in addition to sections of guns targeting the bunkers. When the positions were taken, the MG assets moved forward with the water and second line ammo stocks carried by tanks set up as supply vehicles, towing sleds, so any counter-attack could be given the massed firepower treatment (none eventuated).
Bayonetstrength the website.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160425165025/http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com:80/British/Infantry/british_infantry_battalion 1943 to 1945.htm
Or here, that seems to say all Vickers were 'brigaded' in machine gun battalions.
http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/org-divmgbn.htm
Would you like to share your source?
I think tracer burn time is pretty relevant to long range machine fun fire. It certainly helps the gunner out a great deal.
Sure you can use maps, coordinates and tables of elevation, or whatever it is they were using for those techniques, but I actually think that that's much less relevant for impromptu firing and moving engagements as seen in SD
https://web.archive.org/web/20160425165025/http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com:80/British/Infantry/british_infantry_battalion 1943 to 1945.htm
Or here, that seems to say all Vickers were 'brigaded' in machine gun battalions.
http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/org-divmgbn.htm
Would you like to share your source?
I think tracer burn time is pretty relevant to long range machine fun fire. It certainly helps the gunner out a great deal.
Sure you can use maps, coordinates and tables of elevation, or whatever it is they were using for those techniques, but I actually think that that's much less relevant for impromptu firing and moving engagements as seen in SD
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You are right. The story that Hidden Gunman was referencing is one of the go to meme stories that Teaboos talk about when discussing the Vickers HMG. Not trying to demean Gunman at all, its just that story is entirely irrelevant to combat after WW1.
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No, its not.
Im not sure in what language, or reality is firing 400 projectiles at something as effective as firing 1200. Or rather, firing 400 at 1/3 of a time.
Yes, its so silly that it is about the value defined as "burst" in Vickers manual. Which also recommends firing at 4-5 second bursts at long range.
Saturation and hit probability on the target is also the same, of course, because 400=1200.
Yes, but Im waiting for the evidence that 400=1200.
Since we are pivoting from "muh long range fire" to fixed positions and tree lines, and 400=1200, apparently yes.
1944/5 British Infantry division.
Total - 18,347 men
Pistols 1,011
Rifles 11,254
Sten guns 6,525
Light Machine Guns, Bren 1,525
Machine Guns, Vickers Mk I 40
2" Mortar 283
3" Mortar 60
4.2" Mortar 16
PIATs 436
20mm guns 71
40mm Anti-aircraft guns 36
40mm Self Prop AA guns 18
25pdr Field guns 72
6pdr Anti-tank guns 78
17pdr Anti-tank guns 32
Motorcycles, solo 983
Cars,
Miscellaneous 495
Armored 31
Light Reconnaissance 32
Miscellaneous carriers 595
Ambulances 24
Trucks, 15 cwt 954
Lorries, 3 ton 1,056
Tractors,
Misc. 205
Trailers 226
Joslen, Lt. Col. H.F., Orders of Battle, Second World War, 1939- 1945, Her Majesty's Stationary Office, 1960.
1944 german infantry division had 24 MG 42s per regiment, 12 in fussilier Bn and 6 in engineer Bn.
Older divisions had 36 per regiment.
1944 type had 566 LMGs and 90 HMGs.
Older types had 527 LMGs and 116 HMGs.
Actually, 12 SS had 1500 machine guns on 1st June 1944, 1th SS had 450 MGs, 17th SS had 1050 machine guns and so on.
You didn't put a huge of thought into that comment, if you had you would have realised that you were wrong. It is largely irrelevant to combat in showcased in steel division, it is absolutely not irrelevant to combat in WW2 and beyond. Physics and the presence of fixed defensive positions did not alter between WW1 and WW2...
And now we're pretending the MG42 can sustain it's maximum cyclic rate of fire indefinitely. Wonderful.
Remember that the thread is about range, not overall effectiveness. Does the high rate of fire not affect it's performance at medium range fairly similarly to longer range?
Good catch. I'll take your word on that
I meant to add steel division in my comment. Static warfare also declined tremendously in World War II to the point where mapping out arcs of fire with a .303 HMG would've both been a waste of ammunition and time.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that it applies just as well to the MG42 which would be firing in an indirect fire mode at the range it has modelled in game, I believe people who have experience of using similar weapons have already made this point though.
Ultimately from a realism perspective there is no sensible explanation for the difference in range between the 2 guns, from a gameplay perspective well that's a matter of opinion and a whole other can of worms, it irritates me as much as it pleases you.
Also you've overestimated the extent to which warfare was fluid and mobile during WW2, yes it was less entrenched during WW2 than WW1 but there are still plenty of instances where the Germans and Italians fought from largely defensive positions, The Gustav line, Keren/Keru and the Western Desert at various times are all perfectly good examples of this to name but a few which occured to me.
800m is not indirect fire. I've shot at that distance and all you do is range your optic out for that distance or if you are using a fixed optic like an ACOG or a PSO you use the chevrons or hash marks.
Oh yeah. Do you remember the ratio if there even is one?
Edit: Wait... is it compressed? I genuinely forgot. Ranges on the map don't seem compressed.
I think it's somewhat selective and arbitrary. the game Dev's are French after all so don't expect excessive logic!
Bullshit.
Don't insult people...
Massed HMG fire was used throughout WW2, by most if not all Empire forces...and used post WW2 in Korea and Vietnam by Australians...it was used in 1st Tobruk, Bardia, Syria, and throughout the SWPA.
Again, bullshit.
Whenever you prop, whether a section or a division, arcs of fire are allocated, and if necessary, guns are staked in...that's basic soldiering.