The .30 cal machine guns teams should have the same range as the German Mg42/Mg34

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Drang

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I personally think the MG-42 should be brought down to 600m range, not buffing the .30 Cals to the absurd 800m standard. Let us not fall into the trap of power creep, please.

And for God's sake, can we buff the price of non-vet Vicker/M1917/M1919 teams? They are currently atrocious.

Standardizing around 600 works just as well as standardizing around 800. 800 represents the capability for indirect fire, but given tank guns are limited to 1000 and 1200m max ranges, and we have artillery capped at 4k, 600 does seem more proportional.
 

jammiebadger

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Yeah i don't buy into the idea of asymetric balance for the sake of it (because muh Wehraboo engineering and it has scope therefore must be longer ranged than a weapon without one) and at the expense of actual realism and proper representation of weapons true capabilities, that's just a sure fire way to irritate people who bought into the more realism orientation of steel division.
 

I WUB PUGS

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Scopes should only affect accuracy.

You can see a man at 1000 yards, you can definitely see a bunch of men at 1000 yards.

You can also see tracers landing near those men at a thousand yards.

Your scope should just help you get on target quicker.
 

Rojan

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I think there is a serious bit of frustration coming from the arbitrary line drawn between realism and game balance. At some point a decision was and needed to be made to say this unit will be """better"""" and also more expensive than this other unit of the same type. The Vickers beats every axis unit short of a FJ squad and fires forever... for twenty points. Just take it as it is and make the best of it. I love the Vickers because of it's price and it is a wonderful ranged compliment to the general scum infantry the British field. It doesn't need any help.
 

jammiebadger

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I think there is a serious bit of frustration coming from the arbitrary line drawn between realism and game balance. At some point a decision was and needed to be made to say this unit will be """better"""" and also more expensive than this other unit of the same type. The Vickers beats every axis unit short of a FJ squad and fires forever... for twenty points. Just take it as it is and make the best of it. I love the Vickers because of it's price and it is a wonderful ranged compliment to the general scum infantry the British field. It doesn't need any help.
The frustration is somewhat compounded by the inability of the most readily available indirect phase A counter to 800m machine gun teams being outranged by the target they are trying to engage or smoke off, that's before you throw in the fact its overpriced and crap.

But yeah, the salt is based on for my part on the arbitrary line being arbitrary rather than based on actual capability, it would be as stupid and irritating as equipping the brit 2 and 6 pounder guns in game with HE shells.
 

Rojan

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The frustration is somewhat compounded by the inability of the most readily available indirect phase A counter to 800m machine gun teams being outranged by the target they are trying to engage or smoke off, that's before you throw in the fact its overpriced and crap.

But yeah, the salt is based on for my part on the arbitrary line being arbitrary rather than based on actual capability, it would be as stupid and irritating as equipping the brit 2 and 6 pounder guns in game with HE shells.
I know the 2in. carrier is shit and this is not an attempt at justifying its point cost: hedgerows are your best friend with that unit. If it's all you got to work with then use that or smoke and make artificial LOS blockers to then get in range. I haven't really gotten hung up on an MG42 emplacement because I find ways around it to flank it or just strafe it or use that tactic with the 2in.

I understand the frustration about the arbitrary detachment from realism but I also defend it because it provides interesting gameplay. It does this through the asymmetrical gameplay and it really does provide fun matches.
 

Drang

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I think there is a serious bit of frustration coming from the arbitrary line drawn between realism and game balance. At some point a decision was and needed to be made to say this unit will be """better"""" and also more expensive than this other unit of the same type. The Vickers beats every axis unit short of a FJ squad and fires forever... for twenty points. Just take it as it is and make the best of it. I love the Vickers because of it's price and it is a wonderful ranged compliment to the general scum infantry the British field. It doesn't need any help.

The Vickers being massively inferior in capability to the 34/42 series guns is neither authentic nor balanced, nor particularly interesting to, well, most of us who signed up for an authentic game, rather than the current hilarious inversion of recorded history that is the current meta, where the Allies are the one using human wave assaults of every warm body they have available, and the Germans have superior artillery and air arms. :D
 
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Rojan

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The Vickers being massively inferior in capability to the 34/42 series guns is neither authentic nor balanced, nor particularly interesting to, well, most of us who signed up for an authentic game, rather than the current hilarious inversion of recorded history that is the current meta, where the Allies are the one using human wave assaults of every warm body they have available, and the Germans have superior artillery and air arms.
The Vickers is not massively inferior. It fills a different role for asymmetrical purposes. It is also 15 points cheaper. Both sides also engage with human wave attacks in the game as well.
 

Think Tanker

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It is, and feelings wont change that.
It isn't, and a scope won't change that.

Fire sustainability and area suppression are far more important traits for a MMG than cyclic rate of fire is.
 

Ulatersk

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It isn't, and a scope won't change that.

Fire sustainability and area suppression are far more important traits for a MMG than cyclic rate of fire is.

Fire sustainability and area suppression - as I said, choose one. You are not getting area suppression with Vickers.

Nobody is talking about scope, but that is just another advantage.
 

Think Tanker

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Fire sustainability and area suppression - as I said, choose one. You are not getting area suppression with Vickers.

Nobody is talking about scope, but that is just another advantage.
Sure you are. Fire sustainability allows for area suppression. When you wear out barrels as quickly as you do with a MG-42, you are not suppressing an area, you are suppressing a point.
 

Ulatersk

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Sure you are. Fire sustainability allows for area suppression. When you wear out barrels as quickly as you do with a MG-42, you are not suppressing an area, you are suppressing a point.

Sigh.

Fire sustainability allows for Fire sustainability. With 450 rounds/minute there is close to no suppression of any significant area.


Spraying a 100 meter zone with a RoF like Vickers leads to ineffective fire, and that is simple math. With 100 meter width you will not even cover an attacking company deployed in depth, and even if you spray left and right for, lets say, a given time of 4 seconds to fully exploit ((((muh water cooled fire sustainability)))), you are covering the entire width with...what? 30 bullets?

The slower you move the MG, the lower is the saturation in the rest of your beaten zone , allowing the rest of your enemies to jump up, rush forwad and dive for cover again.

Taking into account the RoF of either Vickers or M1919, you are not getting more than 40 rounds down that width for the given time of 4 seconds. Calculate the dispersion in, and you are getting 0 results, because no enemy is going to stop an attack because of some odd projectiles going his way from 2 kilometers away, but because of intensive fire, and intensive fire that is covering the entire sector to prevent him from moving and thus creating actual suppression.


Entirely different matter is establishing and staying within a beaten zone, a thing that MG 42 tripod does for you basically with some minimal input, contrary to Vickers and M1919.

Now you can do something totally sneaky what every normal Army does to save ammo and to have more effect: You don’t spray and pray a fixed beaten zone for hours but you engage fire team-sized and above targets after you have forced the enemy to spread out while he is approaching and move caterpillar like in fire team sizes and above. Totally revolutionary and done since horde attacks went out of fashion.

And here is where we run into some of the same problems as above except we save ammo and have more chance of actually HITTING something. First problem with iron
sighted MGs again is the target acquisition, the observation of the effect on target and therefore changing the aimpoint and the target saturation.

Now the enemy as already written rushes from cover to cover and exposes himself, mostly trained is 3 seconds, only a short time and then dives again
down. The 3 seconds don’t come out of the blue, guess what it takes into account the time a gunner needs to: detect, aim and shoot at you.

This is with iron sight on longer distances difficult enough, even with an observer with binocular you will need several bursts to go in to the target that is already in cover again and another enemy unit you don’t engage will at that time jump. A scope reduces this time and enables the gunner to shoot faster and more accurate while the rushing enemy soldiers are still exposed to a certain distance of course since the decreasing velocity of the bullet is an important factor to a point where static beaten zones are better.


The MG 34 fires 15, the MG 42 25 rounds per second, the Vickers 7,5 and the M 1919 10 rounds per second.

If we now take into account the fast poping up target of a squad of 8-10 men dispersed over a width of around 20 meters, which will give you a time target of max 5 seconds
from poping up to vanishing behind cover or camouflage like bushes etc. your average MG with iron sights will have way less time to fire and it will fire with worse accuracy as an MG with scope, the shorte time for target acquisition and aiming will lead to an increased time of shooting until the enemy vanishes.

MG 42 can roughly engage around 20 targets with 5-7 round bursts per minute, even if VIckers and M1919 were capable of engaging the same amount of targets in the same time window, you get a 2-3 rounds per burst.

Utterly ineffective, meaning you have to shoot longer, engage less targets, with smaller hit probability, less suppression and more ammunition consumption.


Saturation (accuracy + fire volume) kills, not spray and pray.
 

Drang

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It is, and feelings wont change that.

It dumps less lead on a point target in a shorter period of time, yes. However, given units tended to move in sections in WW2, not fire teams, and tended to operate from and around more fixed fire positions than in modern doctrine, this is much less of a limitation than applying the weapon to modern combat.

It doesn't make the M1919 or Vickers any less capable of engaging targets at range, than the 34/42 series guns. HE and suppression should be the primary dividers between the guns, not an arbitrary +300m range.

The Vickers is not massively inferior. It fills a different role for asymmetrical purposes. It is also 15 points cheaper. Both sides also engage with human wave attacks in the game as well.

As a gun, it is massively inferior; it covers a total, what, 270% less overall area than the 34/42 series guns.
 

KKnispel

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After the MG-42 was totally destroyed by water-cooled MGs in WWII, everyone started producing only water-cooled MGs like the M60, MG3, PKM and SAW.
Everyone knows that.


 

Drang

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Nobody said the watercooled guns were superior from the perspective of a line infantry weapon. Merely better at sustaining fire and capable of delivering fire at equal ranges.
 

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It isn't, and a scope won't change that.

Fire sustainability and area suppression are far more important traits for a MMG than cyclic rate of fire is.

Range should also factor into that...continuous sustained firing at long range, relying on the ability to sweep the beaten zone to interdict a large area is far more effective than five to ten round bursts trying to do the same thing.

The real problem is that the German and Brit doctrines on the use of 'HMG's' was very different. The german range of utility guns weren't designed for mass fire support, including indirect fire map shoots, but the Vickers was. Standard practice at the end of WW1 for the Brits was to use companies of guns (24 guns) to provide massed firepower onto targets at medium to long range, preferably from defilade. The devs have simply thought "MG's...direct fire.", end of story.
 

Ulatersk

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It dumps less lead on a point target in a shorter period of time, yes

No, it dumps more lead on any given activity for actually effectively engaging targets, at any given range.

However, given units tended to move in sections in WW2, not fire teams, and tended to operate from and around more fixed fire positions than in modern doctrine, this is much less of a limitation than applying the weapon to modern combat.

WHhich has absolutely no influence at all on what I posted.

It doesn't make the M1919 or Vickers any less capable of engaging targets at range, than the 34/42 series guns.

It does, because:

you have to shoot longer, engage less targets, with smaller hit probability, less suppression and more ammunition consumption.

The real problem is that the German and Brit doctrines on the use of 'HMG's' was very different. The german range of utility guns weren't designed for mass fire support, including indirect fire map shoots, but the Vickers was.

British infantry division in 1944 had a machinegun battalion with 36 Vickers machine guns established as a dvisional level asset.

German infantry division had 12 MG 42s per company, for a total of 36.


So while British infantry company might have/could have some heavy MG support, german company is designed by OoB to have 12 MG 42s at their call, not depending on their divisional commander to expect everything.