• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Don_Quigleone

Field Marshal
87 Badges
Jan 19, 2007
5.026
2.226
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Seems to be a lot of talk here regarding military power when it comes to putting Sweden above other countries, but I think that's ignoring a somewhat obvious point regarding the Netherlands, and that is that it was the world's first modern Capitalist economy. Personally, that alone puts it into tier 1 for me. It wasn't it's military victories that made it great, but their dominance of world trade and commerce.

The Netherlands had influence across the whole world, while Sweden's influence, though great, was limited to Northern Europe. Not to say Sweden doesn't deserve attention, but I'd place it behind the Netherlands (and ahead of Prussia).

Now the fact the Netherlands don't exist at game start, and are likely to not come into existence is a valid point, but then the question that must be asked is: "Why don't they come into existence more frequently?"

I think there should be event chains for the Dutch revolts, that make it highly likely for the Netherlands to come into existence. Likewise, there should be event chains that allow players to form the Netherlands as Gelre, Friesland, Burgundy and any other appropriate state in the region.
 
Last edited:

Haresus

Things are often as they seem...
55 Badges
Oct 9, 2010
1.002
2.190
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
Special event chains for Dutch revolts? That sounds... Very forced. Why would the Dutch be more rebellious than anyone else? Why should I be especially punished for conquering those lands?
 

Homero

First Lieutenant
9 Badges
Apr 19, 2008
295
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
Potugal didn't have much influence in Europe, but had tremendous influence on politics in South America, Africa, Oceania and Asia, including other european nations' policies in those world theaters.
In fact, as I said before there will always be different opinions, different point of views,


Holders of global leadership

Global leadership is, of course, an analytical concept, one that finds its anchorage in a theoretical system, and in this case, that of evolutionary world politics. It is not chiefly a term of self-designation, one that was used by those we describe here as ‘holders of global leadership” (that is, world powers). Nor was it a term of general political discourse and current usage. It is of some interest to take note of the terms that were contemporaneously used for those powers that our matrix predicts acceded to such a position at the culmination of their learning cycles, in the phase of execution.

The flexibility that is the hallmark of these leadership arrangements is reflected in the variety of terms that have denoted that phenomenon.The King of Portugal assumed, in 1500, the title of “Lord of the Conquest, Navigation, and Trade in Ethiopia, Arabia, Persia and India”. That was not a claim to territorial conquest or to rule over any of these areas, but one asserting a right to control traffic and trade between the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans, i.a. by means of establishing forts and trading posts in those waters. That right was in fact exercised fairly effectively over the following century, and was backed up by a the treaty of Tordesillas, that partitioned the global ocean space between Portugal and Spain. (Modelski and Modelski 1988:39-40,58).

The Dutch Republic acted out its claim to global leadership by becoming the principal opponents of the Spanish King’s claim to “universal monarchy”, the advocate of the freedom of the seas (mare liberum) in the face of Portuguese-Spanish monopoly, and the anchor of Calvinist alliances against the Counter Reformation. Having achieved these goals, it became the emporium mundi, the center of world trade, but also the home of the Elect. In British and French eyes, though, it turned into the center of global arrogance, and in the Treaty of Dover (1670) the Dutch were condemned for daring to set themselves up as “arbiter and judge over all other potentates” (Modelski and Modelski 1988:184).

British assertions of an exceptional position in world affairs took two forms. In the European theatre, William III of Britain, the Dutch holder who ascended the English throne, laid claim “to hold the balance of Europe” (1701), and the general peace settlement of Utrecht (1713) that terminated this particular period of global war, confirmed the balance as the fundamental principle of peace, and in effect endorsed that claim. In the world at large, Britain asserted a “dominion of the seas” best expressed in the words of the popular song (1734) boasting that “Britannia rules the waves”. Both forms were reaffirmed in the Vienna treaties of 1815, that settled the affairs of Europe following the principles of balance but left extra-European matters and naval problems to British discretion.

The United States initially assumed a role that resembled the earlier British stance; participating as one of a set of four “Great Powers” in the European settlements that followed World War II, albeit in a clearly commanding position (even more obviously so in East Asia, and on the seas and in the air). As the cold war progressed, and was seen in “super-power” terms, the term “leader of the free world” was used, and also that of “command of the seas”. In the 1990’s, “global leadership” made an appearance in Presidential statements, and most recently, the concept of “indispensable nation”, as well as that of “hyper-power”.

This makes it clear that global leadership (that needs to be contrasted with the more expansive one of ‘world leadership’) has in the real world and in political experience denoted a limited but in fact critical set of global responsibilities, involving both the defeat of imperial ambitions of continental proportion, and the condition of oceanic communications. Taking shape principally at the close of global wars, it did not amount to ruling the world but it did involve the shaping of the global layer of interactions, and assuring autonomy in the central precinct of the world system. But its continuing rights and responsibilities over the whole term of office have been left mostly unspecified, and open to continuous reinterpretation.

Does Portugal satisfy the requirements of of the concept of ‘global leadership’?
Critics who view Spain as more powerful tend to overlook the long history of Portuguese explorations and the effort deployed in mounting what were in effect the first operations of global reach. Not only was a great navy (Modelski and Thompson 1988:Ch.7) deployed over inter-continental ranges, but the other “must-dos” of aspirants to global leadership: a lead economy, an open society, and awareness of global problems (Modelski 1996; documentation in Modelski and Modelski 1988:Chapter 2) were also well in evidence.

Did Britain in fact carry through her leadership through two cycles ofglobal politics?
While writers such as Immanuel Wallerstein or Paul Kennedy have little trouble seeing Britain in a leading role, they date different periods for that condition, and do not differentiate between her two terms of office. On the present analysis, it was the Dutch led by William of Orange who, about 1689, co-opted the British into a world role, such that, with the Treaty of Utrecht, the (Georgian) 18th century became, in fact, their initial term of office. That was the time when “Anglomania” first took hold of the European imagination (Buruma1998) as shown i.a. in the writings of Voltaire or Schiller, or in the political and legal analyses of Montesquieu. Britain held the balance of power in Europe, and dominated the seas, with only one brief interruption of the War of American Independence. Hardly anyone questions the role of Britain in the (Victorian) 19th century. The issue of the two British terms of office is important because it suggests that rather than an often implied one-term tenure, the norm in contemporary global politics (also supported by the two earlier Song cycles) might be a two-term office holding"

Source, Global leadership in an evolutionary perspective
 

Avernite

Field Marshal
75 Badges
Apr 15, 2003
6.844
7.216
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
Special event chains for Dutch revolts? That sounds... Very forced. Why would the Dutch be more rebellious than anyone else? Why should I be especially punished for conquering those lands?

Rebellion to me seems wrong, too.

But definately having an own will. Take the example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch–Hanseatic_War . While the English wiki doesn't say much, in essence Holland (and Zeeland) fought a series of war with the Hanse, despite being nominally Burgundian. Like the Burgundians, any overlord of the area should be able to gain their support by generally letting them do their thing and helping out, but a ruler (like Charles V and Philip II) who seeks to centralize the region (and likewise in northern Italy or many other parts of the HRE, I'd say) may run into trouble. From the way I see it, it appears Holland was essentially only in personal union with Burgundy until Charles V came around, and so the Dutch rebellion would be similar to a normal independence revolt after a country being inherited by a foreign culture (it could be argued that Charles was not really foreign, but Philip II was).

The big difference seems to be that Charles had managed to give them somesort of unity, allowing the previously separate dynastic lands to rebel as a single league. Bit like a CK2 independence league, but with the resulting war causing the league to form a new nation.
 

Sir Iain

Major
19 Badges
Jan 10, 2008
619
78
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
Rebellion to me seems wrong, too.

But definately having an own will. Take the example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch–Hanseatic_War . While the English wiki doesn't say much, in essence Holland (and Zeeland) fought a series of war with the Hanse, despite being nominally Burgundian. Like the Burgundians, any overlord of the area should be able to gain their support by generally letting them do their thing and helping out, but a ruler (like Charles V and Philip II) who seeks to centralize the region (and likewise in northern Italy or many other parts of the HRE, I'd say) may run into trouble. From the way I see it, it appears Holland was essentially only in personal union with Burgundy until Charles V came around, and so the Dutch rebellion would be similar to a normal independence revolt after a country being inherited by a foreign culture (it could be argued that Charles was not really foreign, but Philip II was).

The big difference seems to be that Charles had managed to give them somesort of unity, allowing the previously separate dynastic lands to rebel as a single league. Bit like a CK2 independence league, but with the resulting war causing the league to form a new nation.

Indeed. It wasn't really about them being Dutch, but about resitance to centralisation after inheritance. The problem is that EU didn't really simulate areas that consited of seperate unities like Burgundy, Austria, Spain and the PLC.
 
Jul 15, 2007
8.713
2
PLCs decline started in 1640s, with big chunk of 18th century being technically Russian puppet, so 200 years at most.

The real decline of polish power started in 1697, when the wettins came to the throne of poland... at 1640 poland was propably still strong enough to compete with russia. Before the wettins came to the throne of poland, the King of poland, was Sobieski, the great victorer of battle of vienna, the defender of the faith. Hardly a losing period i'd say.

EDIT: Actualy if he would made what he planned, poland could become a power for next century(he wanted to incorporate prussia into poland - for example)

He mostly failed due the retard french politics...

Btw. even thou August the II, was not very bad king(i am reading his history and i think he was pretty good politic), thou he allowed few things that were very bad for poland(Kingdom in Prussia for example).
 
Last edited:

Red_warning

Field Marshal
83 Badges
Jul 5, 2010
3.053
23.179
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Victoria 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
The real decline of polish power started in 1697, when the wettins came to the throne of poland... at 1640 poland was propably still strong enough to compete with russia. Before the wettins came to the throne of poland, the King of poland, was Sobieski, the great victorer of battle of vienna, the defender of the faith. Hardly a losing period i'd say.

EDIT: Actualy if he would made what he planned, poland could become a power for next century(he wanted to incorporate prussia into poland - for example)

He mostly failed due the retard french politics...

Btw. even thou August the II, was not very bad king(i am reading his history and i think he was pretty good politic), thou he allowed few things that were very bad for poland(Kingdom in Prussia for example).

I read about the deluge and I find it hard to call Poland a winner of that period, even if they eventually managed to push the invaders back.
 

McGregg

First Lieutenant
67 Badges
Jul 29, 2010
233
6
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
I read about the deluge and I find it hard to call Poland a winner of that period, even if they eventually managed to push the invaders back.
I must agree with Red_warning. Saying that "The real decline of polish power started in 1697" is misleading at best.

You've just received blow from Cossacks and shortly after that from Sweden during The Deluge. Then you have Treaty of Buchach (Poland ceded territory of Podolia to the Ottomans and agreed to pay a yearly tribute of 22,000 thalers).

Sobieski, Vienna and successful campaign against Ottomans (ended with Treaty of Żurawno) can not overshadow the fact that The Commonwealth was already weakened. I would say Sobieski let Poland/Lithuania "to stay in play"...
Not to mention the destabilization of the political system...
 
Last edited:

unmerged(63836)

Field Marshal
Dec 25, 2006
2.590
3
I must agree with Red_warning. Saying that "The real decline of polish power started in 1697" is misleading at best.

You've just received blow from Cossacks and shortly after that from Sweden during The Deluge. Then you have Treaty of Buchach (Poland ceded territory of Podolia to the Ottomans and agreed to pay a yearly tribute of 22,000 thalers).

Sobieski, Vienna and successful campaign against Ottomans (ended with Treaty of Żurawno) can not overshadow the fact that The Commonwealth was already weakened. I would say Sobieski let Poland/Lithuania "to stay in play"...
Not to mention the destabilization of the political system...

Yeah, up until Khmielnitsky Uprising Poland-Lithuania was more or less on the rise - securing Baltic coast from Danzig to Estonia after wars with Teutonic Order and Livonian War, messing around in Moldavia, successfully containing and winning wars against Russia, etc. After that it really went downhill. Sobieski couldn't really turn the tide, and there wasn't really will for radical reforms akin to pre-partition ones from late 18th century.
 

AndreasPhokas

Alpha Nerd
74 Badges
Aug 12, 2012
1.440
638
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
i view sobieski as a leaking dam trying to protect poland from a great deluge of resevoir water. He held but leaks were there
 
Jul 15, 2007
8.713
2
I must agree with Red_warning. Saying that "The real decline of polish power started in 1697" is misleading at best.

You've just received blow from Cossacks and shortly after that from Sweden during The Deluge. Then you have Treaty of Buchach (Poland ceded territory of Podolia to the Ottomans and agreed to pay a yearly tribute of 22,000 thalers).

Sobieski, Vienna and successful campaign against Ottomans (ended with Treaty of Żurawno) can not overshadow the fact that The Commonwealth was already weakened. I would say Sobieski let Poland/Lithuania "to stay in play"...
Not to mention the destabilization of the political system...

Well, maybe it was in decline, but until the saxon dynasty came to polish throne, poland was pretty much reformable, and was not russian puppet. It became russian puppet during their reign. And during Sobieski's reign poland was still a power.

Yeah, up until Khmielnitsky Uprising Poland-Lithuania was more or less on the rise - securing Baltic coast from Danzig to Estonia after wars with Teutonic Order and Livonian War, messing around in Moldavia, successfully containing and winning wars against Russia, etc. After that it really went downhill. Sobieski couldn't really turn the tide, and there wasn't really will for radical reforms akin to pre-partition ones from late 18th century.

Reason why Sobieski failed, was because two reasons :
He was not so great diplomat propably.
The overall politics were not in favour of his plan, which was making Franco-Turkish-Polish alliance, or at least make a peace with ottomans, with poland taking back podolia, and he also wanted to take down prussia, which did not succeded, because prussia allied with france, which made it impropable.

If he would manage at least to take prussia, he would manage to make patrition quite impossible - because brandenburg would lose its power, and possibility to meddle in this part of the world. Patrition, was caused mostly by prussia - austria had no real interest in it, neither did russia(in russia interest was to keep poland as puppet). At worst what would happen, would be russian invasion during possible reforms, which could be won by poland, because it would be 1 v 1, with poland propably owning most of it's territories.

EDIT:
BTW: Seeing that there is whole March of the Eagles game, i think that EU4 will propably not anymore cover the napoleonic era, and revolution. Meaning poland still on the map when game ends...
 
Last edited:

Johan

Studio Manager Paradox Tinto
Administrator
Paradox Staff
Moderator
15 Badges
Dec 14, 1999
18.408
38.945
  • Diplomacy
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Magicka
  • Starvoid
In the lobby right now, there are ten suggested countries for the Grand Campaign.. the 8 tier 1 countries, and then the 2 most interesting outside of them..

Now lets see if anyone can guess which two ?
 

Talq

Field Marshal
51 Badges
Sep 7, 2009
4.795
1.007
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I'll guess Poland & Venice
 

Svip

Unpaid Ulm PR employee
81 Badges
Sep 6, 2009
2.947
234
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Rome Gold
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
No one at Paradox has the balls to play Ulm.
 

Grubnessul

Your Friendly Dictator Next Door
76 Badges
Dec 17, 2006
6.000
559
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
Utrecht. Be THE BISHOP!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.