• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
In other words - do not waste a slot on alliance with a nation that you are not planning to diplovassalize.
The whole idea about allies playing realpolitik is pretty much going back to 1.13 where a single province means that two nations will hate each other, except that now it can change without player even knowing what he did to upset the AI.

The reason you can't know that is because you didn't cause it. Others countries are making moves independently of the player, so there is an ongoing dynamic. You can work out how the AI is prioritizing and what it weighs (e.g. common enemies are weighed much higher than good relations, conflicting geopolitics like cross-cross rivalry tends to make it unstable, etc.). It's doable, but only if you lose the idea that the AI primarily does things in response to what the player does. If there was only one or a few AI countries near you, that's maybe how it would be, but in Europe, it's mostly independent of what players do, I think.
 

Lakedaimon

Colonel
68 Badges
Mar 4, 2012
1.018
42
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I had Austria as my ally in my France game, as long as Austria was my only ally and I just vasalized people everything was fine and they joined me in every single war every single time. This was from the 1400's all the way untill around 1750. They joined EVERY SINGLE WAR. But as soon as I allied Prussia things started to get tricky, when I brought in Russia and Hungary things started to get dodgy and when they formed HRE and we got a massive border they just said screw it and broke off the alliance and rivalled me. All seems pretty fair to me, I was messing in their backyard while I had no reason to since I had no eastern enemies. When Austria became big enough to give me the finger they did so. Pretty stable alliance if you ask me.
 

Landris

First Lieutenant
82 Badges
Jun 30, 2009
205
79
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
In other words - do not waste a slot on alliance with a nation that you are not planning to diplovassalize.

That's not the way I view it. The trick is to always treat alliances as a temporary alignment of interests.

For example, as Milan I ally with Austria until Venice is taken care of, but then my interests will conflict with Austria's so I switch allegiances and ally with Poland or Bohemia.
 

Captain_Crunch

Second Lieutenant
65 Badges
Oct 30, 2012
113
96
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I don't want to sound mocking, but it seems that in every case of these threads where someone is freaking pout over the AI "betraying" them it is always for a reason. It's never an example of someone having a distant ally that suddenly turns on them, it's always someone right next to or near enough to them for conflicting interests, as so many have said above. As people have also said, it makes perfect sense for the AI to do something like that if they want what you have, since as a human player you would do exactly the same, no?

The best allies are the ones that are a good enough distance away to have their own interests separate from yours, like being a German nation and allying with England against France. Until you suddenly own Normandie or have other provinces they might want they usually don't betray you. Yes, making attitudes more visible would help, but don't say that the game is "broken" when it's a simple conflict of the AI and your own interests that stops them from staying your friend. Historically the AI seems to be in the right mindset.
 

Vishaing

MM Prime Minister in Exile
12 Badges
Jan 25, 2008
1.420
723
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
In other words - do not waste a slot on alliance with a nation that you are not planning to diplovassalize.
The whole idea about allies playing realpolitik is pretty much going back to 1.13 where a single province means that two nations will hate each other, except that now it can change without player even knowing what he did to upset the AI.
No, don't waste a slot on an Alliance unless you need it. If you need help against a larger threat, go ahead, if you want to make them a Vassal, sure. Don't expect that you and they can just grow forever, eventually you're going to run into trouble. Alexander I was the closest thing to a Napoleon Fanboy you could get after Tilsit, when they met and agreed to "Divide the World, with Napoleon as Emperor of the West and Alexander as Emperor of the East". And yet they still wound up as enemies because eventually both realized they had conflicting interests.

Nah it just makes an unfun game, with one human against every other AI in their sphere of influence. If alliances don't matter anymore, just take them out of the game and have the world start in perma-war, otherwise the current AI diplo system makes no sense.

And for those of us who wanted to play co-operatively with our neighbors, to fight the Ottomans as they were historically fought, for instance, it makes for an even worse experience. Just make some different rulesets and put them in the load screen, how hard is that?
Except I just explained exactly why they reacted the way they did, all of it makes sense, and no, the AI doesn't treat the player any differently unless you set the difficulty higher. If you think they do, prove it, but right now it just looks like Confirmation Bias to me, but until then I'm going to believe the AI Programmer who came to the Forum and explicitly stated that the AI does not treat the player any differently. The fact that it matches my own observations is just a bonus.
 

Teije

01_TITLE_NOTFOUND
100 Badges
Dec 3, 2001
1.148
386
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
...lose the idea that the AI primarily does things in response to what the player does.

Absolutely most succinct way of putting how the AI works at normal settings. There is no monolithic "the AI".

An AI nation treats the player nation as it would another AI nation. Keep track for a while of AI nations making/breaking alliances/declaring war/etc with other AI nations, and you will see it uses the same logic.

Whether that logic could use improving is another issue altogether.
 

LarryLeica

Major Major
90 Badges
Mar 29, 2011
1.970
88
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
Yes, alliances are unrealistic.
This is why America invaded Britain and took over Europe shortly after WW2.

But they did, just with coca-cola, underwired bras, burgers, and lots of money, not with an army...
 

CavScout

Major
50 Badges
Apr 15, 2003
513
175
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
@OP: How many AI nations have you warred with that "didn't want war"?
 

ve3609

Lt. General
68 Badges
Aug 23, 2008
1.281
5
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
allies should be temporary. If you look historically, rarely have alliances lasted a long time unless there was an overbearing threat,UK and Russia v Napoleon, and even in that case they went against each other in the crimea.

it just sees you as a weak enemy who is attacking their geopolitical interests
 

Comradebot

On Double Secret Probation
77 Badges
Feb 13, 2012
3.929
534
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
The picture wasn't exactly clear on my location, but I do have a fairly decent powerbase in North America. The problem is Spain dropped so many troops across the entire thing that there is no chance I'll ever recover, they're taking the colonies from me and because of this they'll never not be trying to destroy me. With GB breathing down my back as well, meaning 2 superpowers wanting me dead, I'll never get anywhere useful. Until this is resolved I'm waiting for MEIOU and Taxes.

Which is why they've become your rival. You can't expect to try and be a colonial power without the other colonial powers getting annoyed that you're taking potentially awesome land away from them.

It's not an "issue" that needs to be resolved, it's you as a player needing to recognize that stepping on your ally's toes can have consequences. This game would be ridiculously easy if all you had to do was regularly send a diplomat to improve relations and you'd be the bestest of friends ever for the entire game.


There's definitely times when the "ally suddenly turns rival on you!" seems a bit silly, but the Tyrone/Spain example seems completely within reason.
 

macd21

General
80 Badges
Oct 10, 2011
2.089
945
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Except I just explained exactly why they reacted the way they did, all of it makes sense, and no, the AI doesn't treat the player any differently unless you set the difficulty higher.

While that's true, I do wonder if the AI is better and avoiding angering other AI countries. The biggest complaint I see from players is that a country went hostile for no apparent reason (the reason generally turning out to be the player taking a province the AI wanted). We can make educated guesses as to what provinces a country is interested in (border areas, obviously, maybe some colonial regions), but does the AI know automatically and take it into account?

Not that I've seen anything to indicate this is the case, just something that occurred to me.
 

Incompetent

Euroweenie in Exile
56 Badges
Sep 22, 2003
8.807
7.325
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
While that's true, I do wonder if the AI is better and avoiding angering other AI countries.

Better than in 1.1, perhaps, but they're still not that good at it. AI countries often get into long-running feuds with one another, it's just that the wars you remember as a player are the ones that involve you directly.
 

jonman122

Second Lieutenant
65 Badges
Jul 23, 2013
197
3
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Except I just explained exactly why they reacted the way they did, all of it makes sense, and no, the AI doesn't treat the player any differently unless you set the difficulty higher. If you think they do, prove it, but right now it just looks like Confirmation Bias to me, but until then I'm going to believe the AI Programmer who came to the Forum and explicitly stated that the AI does not treat the player any differently. The fact that it matches my own observations is just a bonus.

It's silly because Wiz, the guy who programmed the AI (if you go and read the post in which he said the ways the AI cheats, AKA no boat attrition) he indeed states that the AI knows that you're human from the start.
 

Nobak

Major
64 Badges
Nov 1, 2011
587
90
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
I see large AI nations breaking alliance with other large AI nations pretty commonly. They obviously didn't do it cause the other nation is the human then.

The AI can, however, shift attitudes frustratingly quickly and often at times, and the system is pretty opaque. I'm not against this deepening of the diplomacy game, but then there should probably be ways to get an idea what a nation is trying to do. Then maybe you could use that knowledge to orchestrate some pretty cool diplomatic strategies (like pitting two nations against each other) if you play it right.

Maybe that would make Espionage useful?
 

mozgriken

First Lieutenant
32 Badges
Jun 9, 2013
230
6
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
Friesland... I tab out, forgetting that clock is still running. Come back after 6 years have scrolled by, so basically I've done nothing & fortunately was content enough to just eat through the popup windows and keep going.
I notice on pausing that Denmark will now accept an alliance offer. I send, they agree. While waiting for a month to get a marriage, they propose me. I accept. Days later, they break their alliance & go hostile on me. No other actions were taken, they were not at war (hence no peace terms impacted our relations) and like I said this followed a 6+yr period of dormancy where I did absolutely nothing & received no calls to arms, etc.
While I can accept the fact that the AI might have a gamey reason for serving me like that, it does show to what extent the current system of alliances & relations is too "black box". A few pop-up windows / event triggers would be nice, describing why the f such oddities are occurring with such regularity as to make them indeed no longer odd, but almost expected.

When it comes to diplomacy, alliances, and relations, there is simply too many existing options/avenues to ignore the fact it is an extremely fun part of the game dynamics. But in the current status quo since patch, the only "reliable" (cause/effect) way to exercise diplomacy is in vassal annexing. So many of the juicy diplomatic avenues are broken or leaking fun as to be worth addressing. Why make alliances with big countries when they don't commit troops to defensive wars? Why take an idea path giving 50% claim fab time if it doesn't even work? Why commit diplomats and strategy to allying with a non-rival country if it, once achieved, somehow flips and causes them to go hostile on you?

Especially when it comes to diplomacy, players in the current patch are getting too few reliable or expected outcomes from planning ahead and trying to stay prepared.
 

Riidi

Captain
33 Badges
Jan 4, 2008
414
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
The reason you can't know that is because you didn't cause it. Others countries are making moves independently of the player, so there is an ongoing dynamic. You can work out how the AI is prioritizing and what it weighs (e.g. common enemies are weighed much higher than good relations, conflicting geopolitics like cross-cross rivalry tends to make it unstable, etc.). It's doable, but only if you lose the idea that the AI primarily does things in response to what the player does. If there was only one or a few AI countries near you, that's maybe how it would be, but in Europe, it's mostly independent of what players do, I think.

Don't you think that's ... bad? I mean, do we want the primary driver of AI behavior to be other AI behavior? Doesn't that sound ... bad?