That Ottoman Empire ... Yeah, I want to take it out.

[IrishGirl]

I'll begin by saying I'd post a picture but I'm at work. Even without pictures, though, anyone who has play EU4 to 1590 can probably visualize the situation:

1555. Playing as Castile. Aragon is integrated; Portugal is my vassal. Still have a PU over Naples. Three colonial nations in the Caribbean, Mexico, Brazil. Navy of 52 vessels including 8 large ships and 10 galleys (inherited from Aragon). Three stacks of 10 Infantry, 4 Cavalry, 4 cannons, as well as miscellaneous troops scatted throughout my empire. Portugal has around 18k (and 44 Liberty desire); Naples has 33k (and 28 LD).

The Ottomans have ... more. Much more.

They've grown up into Lithuania and Muscovy (which is also blobbing it's way to glory). The Caucuses, the mid-east, even into Egypt ... there's a huge stain as if someone spilled mint julep ice cream all over the map. Mamluks are a vassal. Tunis, Morroco, Tlemcen are all allied to Ottomans.

I'm literally getting an alliance request from the Commonwealth every month. It's not so much a request as a desperate cry for help.

And ... it's only 1555.

As a God-fearing Catholic nation, Castile feels it's time to put an end to this nonsense. Is there a viable strategy for me to take on the Ottomans at this point? Is it worth it for me to accept the Commonwealth's cry for help, eh, alliance offer? France has rivaled me. England will never ally with me (stupid EU4 diplomacy) and is my competitor for land in the New World. So as soon as my back is turned ....yeah.

Is it even worth it for me to try a stunt like this? Should I just bury my head in the proverbial sand and hope I reach 1821 before the predominant language in Europe is Turkish? I could try to ally Muscovy but they, too, have rivaled me.

Maybe Defender of the Faith? (Except I fear I'll be called into every war against the Papacy in Europe). Can I try to get the curia controller and call for a crusade?

Suggestions appreciated.

 

[CplKatie]

When I need to take on a huge monster I wait till I have espionage idea group filled out then repeatedly support rebels in their lands. Also I wouldn't do any major wars until you have placated those vassals down to close to 0 LD. One battle will knock both of them into rebellious. I usually farm little baby countries in the new world/africa and just farm prestige off them. End rivalries, give up claims, and break alliances in peace deals are best for prestige without inducing a long truce or killing off an easy prestige farm.

 

[Canute VII]

Get yourself some good trade companies for the extra ducats; and for steering trade away from the Ottomans. Use every possible spy action against them. Don't enter into silly situations until at least your navy outmatches theirs. What about allying Austria?

 

[Badesumofu]

I wouldn't attack the Ottoblob while you are in such an insecure position. You suspect, probably correctly, that as soon as you attack the Ottos that France will come knocking. You need to secure your position first.

Usually playing in Western Europe I leave the Ottomans until the late 1600s so I can have a rival for PP then I take a massive peace deal from them to stay above 50 PP for most of the game. By this stage they will often be huge - 2k dev or more. That doesn't matter so much if you have been growing too. Conquer as much as you can in Trade Company regions for cheap 0 LA provinces that only require territorial cores. These provinces give you full force limit and loads and loads of money. You use these things to field a massive army or merc infantry and regular artillery/cavalry. You don't need all that much manpower if you don't field much/any regular infantry.

 

[IrishGirl]

Austria is an ally - and owes me like 35 favors. Alliance slots are Portugal, Naples and Austria.

 

[Canute VII]

Maybe you want to ally someone on their other front, like Ethiopia in their south or Persia in their east. Once you're ready for war, coming from different sides will force them to split up their armies. Oh, and if you're a great power the influence them so they have a chance to keep up with tech.

 

[IrishGirl]

I wouldn't attack the Ottoblob while you are in such an insecure position. You suspect, probably correctly, that as soon as you attack the Ottos that France will come knocking. You need to secure your position first.

Usually playing in Western Europe I leave the Ottomans until the late 1600s so I can have a rival for PP then I take a massive peace deal from them to stay above 50 PP for most of the game. By this stage they will often be huge - 2k dev or more. That doesn't matter so much if you have been growing too. Conquer as much as you can in Trade Company regions for cheap 0 LA provinces that only require territorial cores. These provinces give you full force limit and loads and loads of money. You use these things to field a massive army or merc infantry and regular artillery/cavalry. You don't need all that much manpower if you don't field much/any regular infantry.

That's what started me thinking about along these lines. Early on Portugal fought an unfortunate war with Morocco and lost their holdings in Africa. Meanwhile, Castile managed to grab some land in Tlemcen and so I do have a landing area. But I still want the land around the Sevilla trade node.

Having integrated Aragon (and recieved their wonderful navy) I decided to hit North Africa hard, take a bunch of provinces, sharing some of them with Naples and Portugal, vassalising Morocco, then making it a march (by giving it some of the territories that are not as valuable) and using it as a strategic barrier against the East. I know Marches have a bad rep, but I've done this before and Morocco has done well against other nations in Africa.

But ... that's when I noticed they were all allied to the Ottomans.

 

[Pelthis]

Honestly it depends on your objectives in this campaign, but unless you want a real challenge, I'd suggest you to strengthen your economy by grabbing easier land and colonies, then secure your vassals/PU because you don't want them to turn disloyal in the middle of a clutch war. Ottomans are still kinda far away from you, so I'd prefer securing my borders if I was you, getting rid of France, securing some rich provinces in Italy like Genoa trade node etc
And only after becoming an economic powerhouse (and let mid-late game Ottomans decay a bit) I'd try my luck against them, being sure nobody else would interfere. Be careful as well concerning great power interactions. If you call your allies vs Otto, it would be a shame if some other great power join the war to troll you.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Wait, you started as a major and all of your big rivals are still around by 1550? Also you let them (or at least the Ottomans) outblob you?

In general as Spain post Iberian Wedding you should always be ahead of the Ottomans (or France) in the great power ranking. Once you form Spain and get tercio age ability you have space marines that beat anyone pretty easily. If you aren't you don't blob fast enough

Forget Exploration, start with influence and religious, then admin. Focus on beating up France as early as possible, knock out Gascony, get the Inheritance and take provinces to connect Gascony with burgundy from France..by that time France should be in a death spiral
Let Aragon fabricate on Tunis and attack, take the Center of trade and the province that borders the Mamluks. If they are allied to the Ottomans just beat up their navy, mamluks won't give them access so after a few years of having Tunis 100% occupied you get full warscore. Just make sure your navy prevents landing in Naples
After that beat up the mamluks to block the ottos out of egypt
Regarding the new world, you get a colonist from your national ideas and with dip tech 7 you can reach the new world, just steal maps from someone. Start colonies next to natives and deus vult them, you only really need to colonize the carribean with to get ToT there (so other catholics don't colonize there and you control the trade flow). Everything else is conquering natives, so exploration is overrated imo

 

[PhoenixG]

If you not in a hurry. Wait 50 years. Starting tech 15 your units are as strong as ottoman.
If you think you need to kill it asap. At least wait till you have tercios and attack from austria land.

 

[luckymarine]

You're focusing on the Ottoman because they're getting a bit big, but this is the time when the Otto's have a lot going for them, they're bound to be expanding it shouldn't fall upon you to keep them in check.

Meanwhile you have a France on your doorstep that would happily kick your teeth in the moment you lost enough men to a war in Africa or the Middle East. They have to be the focus of your attention right now, and if you're never going to get to the point where England would be an ally then you might as well eat him too.

With Austria's help jump on France, and slowly secure his coast, if he's taken out Brittany all the better, more land for you to take. Get close enough to be able to fabricate and thus take English land and be moving your way towards Savoy/Genoa (if they're still around) for the long term goal of sniping rich Italian provinces come the Shadow Kingdom event.

Once wrapped in a Spanish blanket the French shouldn't be an issue, you'll have deprived them of a lot of income and should be able to wipe them out relatively easily, just don't let them be a peace for too long, just like the Ottomans you need to keep kicking till they've lost all their teeth, declare on one of their allies if it will circumvent a truce timer. Burgundy might help you out here (if they're still around) as they usually piggyback off the players conflicts with France.

Your colonies will make you rich, long term, and as Spain it would be foolish to have not taken advantage of your position to secure key trade regions, Caribbean, Gold Cost etc.

In the age of reformation you get your Tercios... Be aware that they're mainly defensive units, relying on a silly amount of defensive morale, I'd recommend taking ideas and grabbing advisors that will offer you a little more discipline just to get the fights over with that little bit quicker and thus lose less man power. They're the type of unit that excels when baiting the enemy into defensive terrain, knowing your bait stack will have enough morale to withstand a few rolls till you can support.

If you've not taken France and England out by this time (around 1610) this almost guarantees your victory.

A Spain with colonies, with the British Isles and France taken, trade ideas, collecting in both Genoa and the Channel... Who's going to stop you? Feed Morocco all the +50% coring cost Berber culture land they can fit in their tiny mouths and laugh as you out tech the Ottomans by having the cash flow to maintain 3/3/3 advisors, and outfight them by just throwing money at wars.

If I wasn't currently playing Spain in the MEIOU mod, I'd be off to do this myself right now.

 

[netherlink]

As Spain you don't need to bother with ottomans anyways. You can expand into asia around africa, morocco etc. is too low dev and expensive anyways and you have a lot to conquer in Europe and the 'Muricas.
I tend to have a standing colonial army with the purpose to conquer the natives and help the CNs to smack any rebellion daring to raise against the loyal subjects.

The Ivory Coast is quiet important, too, and you should aim to have the whole coast, every estuary and the 3 gold mines in that region. Whole West Africa is worth more than Maghreb, easier to conquer and cheaper to core.

Meanwhile you should follow @luckymarine s advice and try to conquer as much french and italian clay as possible. Especially the genoan estuaries.
Venice won't be very rich as long as you and the ottos are around, so you can safely ignore eastern Italy and save your men for France, England, Colonial Conquest and, ofcourse, the ottomans later.

Once you reach the spice island ~1600 your trade income should start to explode. This is the time where you can expand into India and eastern Persia, which will not only further increase your trade, but steal money from your arch enemy, too.

By then, the big green blob will lose their most important buff, the janissaries, which is the starting shot for their doom and your glory

 

[Twoflower]

Wait, you started as a major and all of your big rivals are still around by 1550? Also you let them (or at least the Ottomans) outblob you?

In general as Spain post Iberian Wedding you should always be ahead of the Ottomans (or France) in the great power ranking. Once you form Spain and get tercio age ability you have space marines that beat anyone pretty easily. If you aren't you don't blob fast enough

Forget Exploration, start with influence and religious, then admin. Focus on beating up France as early as possible, knock out Gascony, get the Inheritance and take provinces to connect Gascony with burgundy from France..by that time France should be in a death spiral
Let Aragon fabricate on Tunis and attack, take the Center of trade and the province that borders the Mamluks. If they are allied to the Ottomans just beat up their navy, mamluks won't give them access so after a few years of having Tunis 100% occupied you get full warscore. Just make sure your navy prevents landing in Naples
After that beat up the mamluks to block the ottos out of egypt
Regarding the new world, you get a colonist from your national ideas and with dip tech 7 you can reach the new world, just steal maps from someone. Start colonies next to natives and deus vult them, you only really need to colonize the carribean with to get ToT there (so other catholics don't colonize there and you control the trade flow). Everything else is conquering natives, so exploration is overrated imo

Not everyone has to blob like crazy. Especially with a major like Castile, where of course you can conquer half of Europe without breaking much of a sweat, it can actually be fun to restrict yourself and only go for "plausible" war goals. Yes, it's not an optimal playstyle, but belittling and telling everybody that "they are not blobbing fast enough" is just rude and inconsiderate.

 

[bigaristotel]

Get Quantity, get strong economy and you can take them out. I've just did that in my Consulate of the sea run

 

[IrishGirl]

So yeah, I don't blob. It's not why I play EU4. If I wanted to blob, I'd play Civ V.

That may sound harsh, so I'll reword it: When I was introduced to EU3, years ago, what fascinated me was the pure sandbox quality to the game. You could spin the time dials, pick a year and take off. To be honest, I never really learned to play EU3. Awhile back I committed myself to really learning EU4 because I'm still fascinated by that same "write your own history" quality. It's what keeps me entertained, playing the game - and buying DLC.

To the degree that EU4 becomes a blobbing game - which is to say, to the degree that design decisions are made that encourage only one style of gameplay (like constant world conquest), the game becomes less unique and fascinating. I think one of the better decisions made by the EU4 design team was removing the difficulty indicator that was on the various nations when EU4 was released (the pacifier v. skull indicator). Instead, they provided more information about the nation and left it to the player to decide what they felt like they could do with a particular country. To me, it encourages more sandbox play - and more imagination on the part of the player.

Clearly, blobbing should not be discouraged. I find it kind of cool when someone conquers the world as Switzerland. Not my gameplay, but I can recognize the accomplishment. Still, I generally don't begin my games by throwing down a bunch "fabricate claims" and going Attila on my neighbors.

... I tend to have a standing colonial army with the purpose to conquer the natives and help the CNs to smack any rebellion daring to raise against the loyal subjects.

The Ivory Coast is quiet important, too, and you should aim to have the whole coast, every estuary and the 3 gold mines in that region. Whole West Africa is worth more than Maghreb, easier to conquer and cheaper to core.

Meanwhile you should follow @luckymarine s advice and try to conquer as much french and italian clay as possible. Especially the genoan estuaries.
Venice won't be very rich as long as you and the ottos are around, so you can safely ignore eastern Italy and save your men for France, England, Colonial Conquest and, ofcourse, the ottomans later.

Thanks for posting this (you and @luckymarine). This was very helpful. Portugal has started settling the Ivory Coast. One thought I had was to annex them (they're my vassal) and get all that land.

For my native policy, I selected trade. So far, I have colonial nations in Brazil (not a great choice since the trade node doesn't feed directly into Sevilla), the Caribbean, Mexico and a new one in Florida. I have a merchant in the Caribbean steering to Sevilla, as well as one in Safi. My trade range doesn't reach to the Ivory Coast yet. Last night, I realized I owned a huge amount of trade in Genoa (as I'd just integrated Aragon), so I set a merchant to collect there and immediately started earning another 4.2 ducats. I'm not collecting in Sevilla, just steering to it.

Based on what you wrote, I have two questions:

1. Should I be settling land in these areas (using my colonists) for the Colonial Nations or letting them do it? I notice that sometimes when I settle a new area, it automatically goes to the CN. Does this reduce LD?

2. When conquering natives, do you just use the fabricate claim conquest CB? I've tried using it a couple of times around Brazil with the migratory natives, but they just move on and I end up settling the area.

Thanks for the suggestions. If you have others, I'd love to hear them.

 

[PhoenixG]

Based on what you wrote, I have two questions:

1. Should I be settling land in these areas (using my colonists) for the Colonial Nations or letting them do it? I notice that sometimes when I settle a new area, it automatically goes to the CN. Does this reduce LD?

2. When conquering natives, do you just use the fabricate claim conquest CB? I've tried using it a couple of times around Brazil with the migratory natives, but they just move on and I end up settling the area.

Thanks for the suggestions. If you have others, I'd love to hear them.

1. Basicly when you finish a colony in a colonial region where you already have a colonial nation. It will always go to him. It doesn't reduce his LD.

2. With the removal of the colonial conquest CB, you need to fabricate claims to take the land. Unless you have deus vult or imperialism CB.

 

[SPAMbuca]

Before you go in, try to chip away at their allies. Usually they ally Tunis if left alone. As Castille, you can go nuts on Northern Africa and feed the most expensive provinces to Aragon before you integrate it for free. After, you just have to go in. Note that over time, your units become better compared to theirs. Also keep an eye on army composition. You don't want to run around with armies of 10k infantry, 4k, cavalry and 4k cannons. 4k cavalry is possible, but fill the rest of the combat width with infantry and have as many cannons on the background as possible. Cannons aren't as dominant as they will be, but it will definately give you an edge around tech 13+.

See if you can snipe a few mothballed forts at the start. With your colonial nations, you should be able to afford a few mercs. The money overflow you have, needs to be invested in regimental camps and barracks. I would recommend national idea groups: exploration, religious, quantity for starters. Ottomans have a 33% modifier to forcelimit in their ideas and they often take quantity too.

If you want an easier run, start over, make sure you get the burgundian inheritance and the unions and be more agressive. Expanding into North Africa, France, Mali and the New World are all possibilities and preparation that makes invading the Ottomans even easier. I would integrate Portugal now, or just fully annex them in the first place. It's nice they colonize a bit, but you do have to share the trade with them in Sevilla and they have national ideas that make them very good at stealing trade. Until you form Spain and make Genoa your primary trade city, you'll be relatively poor probably because your colonies don't make that much yet either.

Push yourself at the start and you'll be rewarded later.

Once you do manage to win, I recommend to take a province in Syrian land and Byzantium land. You'll probably be over relationship limit for a bit, but it will make things so much easier with those 2 vassals. With Byzantium and Syria released as vassals, you can rip away a lot of the core lands of the Ottomans in 1 go. Make sure you also get at least 1 complete crossing across the Bosporus. I recommend to take both Edirne (release Byzantium on that province) and Biga (or whatever province is connected to Edirne) and to take something like Haleb/Antakia to release Syria.

 

[schondetta]

That's quite possibly the worst time to take on the Ottomans. They are usually at there strongest late 16th century.ita easier to do it within the first 50 years of the game or mid 17th century+ I found

 

[ElGranCapitan]

That's quite possibly the worst time to take on the Ottomans. They are usually at there strongest late 16th century.ita easier to do it within the first 50 years of the game or mid 17th century+ I found

Not as Spain, beating the ottomans is actually rather easy in the 16th century

You get 15% morale and 5% discipline from your national ideas, you also get 2 missions for 15% morale and manpower recovery for 10 years (the first is the granada mission, the second a few provinces in north africa), use the first to give you an edge against france, the second you keep for the Ottomans

So with that mission reward active you get 30% morale and 10% discipline (with a disc advisor), also you take 20% less damage in the shock phase due to the age ability

If you are papal controller quite possible due to Religious and converting egypt you get the crusade modifier as well

You should rush egypt after securing your northern borders, build forts at the ottoman border and scorch earth there. Your superior navy should win at sea and blockade the ottomans from a naval invasion in naples. They won't get access because Austria hates them, so their only way is to attack your forts where you crush them over and over again until you feel that you have broken them enough to siege them up completly

 

[Big Bad France]

Giant blobs like the Ottomans aren't worth attacking directly in 1555, especially if you aren't a lot bigger than they are. What you should focus on is limiting their expansion. If the Mamluks are still around, take Egypt. Also get a path to India and focus your efforts there. You don't want a decades-long war where you are only able to take a handful of provinces. It's much better to wait until the age of absolutism and max that out, then come back for the Ottomans when you can really make them bleed. Allying the Commonwealth will limit Ottoman and Russian expansion into their lands, so it's a good idea unless it will get you into a defensive war you can't win.