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If people really think that we need to do those Swedish and Polish CB shields in the Baltic, we could have fantasy events that trigger if the TO is gone by the time of the historical "Fate of the TO" event. But what would be the rationale for this?
Shouldn't there be an option if the TO is kicking but.... why can't it go on till 1819??? The fate of a country almost never applies when the human plays as it, as there is always a bailout... but for the TO your always be guarenteed getting wrecked even if you'd somehow become a 40 province giant... that's just messed up, The TO broke up like it did because it was weak, if its strong... little point in always FORCING the TO not to exist... not very realistic IMHO... especially if you play as the TO and kick Polands/Lithuania's butt, and you STILL end up disbanding... its almost WTF... there needs to be something that judges the power of the TO to determine if it can survive or if it must end cause of X,Y,Z circumstances... how to do it tho, is a different question...
My 2 Ducats =)
My 2 Ducats =)
That's the biggest weakness with the whole game engine I have encountered. I hadn't realised how it worked, so I was a little shocked when in 1455 the Wars of the Roses broke out in England - despite the fact that I hadn't lost any ground at all in France and I had +3 stability, not to mention very noble friendly slider positions.
Same goes for the whole historical characters thing; if I carry on through to 1790 or so, I imagine that Nelson will pop up regardless of whether I've shown any interest in naval power at all.
Ah well; ten to one this debate has been played out ad nauseam before I got here!
Rob
Same goes for the whole historical characters thing; if I carry on through to 1790 or so, I imagine that Nelson will pop up regardless of whether I've shown any interest in naval power at all.
Ah well; ten to one this debate has been played out ad nauseam before I got here!
Rob
Let me add my two cents...
What about this:
1. In 1419
PRU = Teutonic Order with Danzig, Prusia and Memel, capital Prussia
LAT = Swordbrothers Order with Estonia, Latvia and COurland
LAT is vassal of PRU
2. In 1525
Event for PRU with choices:
a) PRU reformed and vassal of Poland as Prussia, LAT independent
b) LAT annexed by PRU, PRU in war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
c) war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
3. Event "The fate of TO" changed to "THe fate of Swordbrothers order"
What about this:
1. In 1419
PRU = Teutonic Order with Danzig, Prusia and Memel, capital Prussia
LAT = Swordbrothers Order with Estonia, Latvia and COurland
LAT is vassal of PRU
2. In 1525
Event for PRU with choices:
a) PRU reformed and vassal of Poland as Prussia, LAT independent
b) LAT annexed by PRU, PRU in war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
c) war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
3. Event "The fate of TO" changed to "THe fate of Swordbrothers order"
That doesn't help the Teutonic Order at all out, If I got a 40 province TO, I still lose territory and continue playing as LAT, it does nothing to remedy that situation at all. And I think that most history books to the best of my knowledge will say that the swordbrothers were absorbed in the 1200s and then poof they ceased to exist after that, cause maps I see will say teutonic knights not swordbrothers anymore... Either way it doesn't go with what I'm saying, if the TO is powerful, then there is no reason for its demise, if its weak THEN it can follow history, no clue as to why people can't see that... play as burgundy you can keep on going ahistorically... or play some country that dies out IRL, like the Byzentium getting nailed by Turkey, but with the TO its ALWAYS die, I could have all of Europe by 1525 and it dies, and makes 0 sense, its dismantled period
As for the Sword brothers in:
1236 The Sword Brothers were extinguished as a separate military order after their decisive defeat by the Lithuanians. Their remnants were absorbed by the Teutonic Knights.
on this website:
http://home.talkcity.com/AcademyDr/eusebius/chrono13.htm
another website:
http://www.dragonbear.com/baltic.html
Now if we start worrying about the sword brothers... its getting to deep...
Alwin von Arlt said:
Yes it does. See option (c). You can continue playing on as LAT with no loss of territory. But this has some consequences - religious turmoil in PRU & war with POL & LIT. I think this is an ideal solution. You can play on & keep all of your gains, but you must face some obstacles as a result. And if you are doing as well as you say as LAT, a little religious turmoil & the hostility of POL & LIT is a mere annoyance...
I was using that as an example, never did a TO game, cause the events dictate my fate... should be a way to keep on as the TO. I'd play one all the way as the TO, another using LAT... just seems odd how the game terminates the Order when its not needed especially IF I conquered alot of territory... just saying... but I guess I need to create another option that allows at least the hooman to continue on... but then I may need to put in grandmasters for the order... and towards the end it would be heads of the Habsburgs... so it would get complicated how to determine legitimate highmasters later on
The TO can defy fate in the "Fate of the Teutonic Order" event; they lose no territory at all under choice C. Some other nations get CB shields on your provinces, but who cares?
To the best of my knowledge, Swordbrothers were not absorbed, but subordinated to Teutonic Orders. IMHO in EU2 reality Swordbrothers should be vassal of Teutonic Order. And please note, that I mean LAT should be vassal of PRU, not inversaly. After battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg in 1410 and before 1525, Swordbrothers waged seperate wars with Lithuania, and Teutonic Orders (PRU) waged many seperate wars with Poland. Hence after 1525 they became independent country. (And yes, I kow thath political situation in provinces known in EU2 as LAT was much more complicated - especially we can argue that archibishop of Riga ruled as almost independent monarch).
In my previous post my main point was that Prussia didn't exist before 1525 and tag PRU should be connected to Teutonic Order. The center of Teutonic Order were always provinces Prussia and Danzig, not Latvia or Livland.
Of course as revolter this tag should be Prussia after 1525 and Teutonic Order before.
I don't think two names can share the same tag. I can't think of any other country that can, at least... one would think that they would've used it for countries like the Timurids/Mughal empire to simplify things, if that would actually work... so, I don't think it would.
(I'm not opposing the basic design suggestion for the history, just pointing out that it is very doubtful that having two countries with the same tag would work)
(I'm not opposing the basic design suggestion for the history, just pointing out that it is very doubtful that having two countries with the same tag would work)
I agree, but as a two-province alliance, the TO is very weak - they can't get any more allies. That's why I've been combining both branches into one tag.
1236 The Sword Brothers were extinguished as a separate military order after their decisive defeat by the Lithuanians. Their remnants were absorbed by the Teutonic Knights.
just making a point that the sword brothers just didn't exist after 1236, can't find any info anywhere I look that they did... see my links above...
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=16904&tocid=0&query=sword brothers
Latin Fratres Militiae Christi, German Schwertbrüderorden, byname Knights Of The Sword, Livonian Order, or Livonian Knights, organization of crusading knights that began the successful conquest and Christianization of Livonia (most of modern Latvia and Estonia) between 1202 and 1237.
Just don't see where they existed after 1236/37...
::::AlanC9 The TO can defy fate in the "Fate of the Teutonic Order" event; they lose no territory at all under choice C. Some other nations get CB shields on your provinces, but who cares? ::::
oh wow great... I thought they lost territory... not just gained CBs
just making a point that the sword brothers just didn't exist after 1236, can't find any info anywhere I look that they did... see my links above...
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=16904&tocid=0&query=sword brothers
Latin Fratres Militiae Christi, German Schwertbrüderorden, byname Knights Of The Sword, Livonian Order, or Livonian Knights, organization of crusading knights that began the successful conquest and Christianization of Livonia (most of modern Latvia and Estonia) between 1202 and 1237.
Just don't see where they existed after 1236/37...
::::AlanC9 The TO can defy fate in the "Fate of the Teutonic Order" event; they lose no territory at all under choice C. Some other nations get CB shields on your provinces, but who cares? ::::
oh wow great... I thought they lost territory... not just gained CBs
OK - I was wrong. Having read some materials on this subject I agree that after 1237/8 Swordbrothers were united with Teutonic Order.
But this doesn't mean that provinces of tag LAT (Estland, Livland, Kurland), should be treated as part of Teutonic Order.
First, political reality of this area about 1400 means 5 so called domini terrae (Landeherren):
1. landmeister of Teutonic Order
2. archbishop of Riga
3. bishop of Ozylia
4. bishop of Dorpat
5. bishop of Kurland
The landmeister of TO, holding about 70% of area, was in constant political struggle with all others and succesfully subordinated them before 1410. But the battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg in 1410 caused important changes in position of Teutonic Order. The church states regained independence and the role of knights and cities rose up.
Note, please, that against what EU2 map shows, there was no land connection between Prussia and Kurland - it's known error. I feel (and most historicians too), that Kurland, Livland and Estland were not just part of Teutonic Order, but subordinated - in terms of EU2 - vassalized - area.
So fortunately to my idea
it is only question of name to LAT. Maybe we should name it Livland Order?I still argue that Teutonic Order should be connected to PRU and not to LAT, and what is more important tag LAT should be vassal of PRU.
So let me repeat my idea in this shape:
1. In 1419
PRU = Teutonic Order with Danzig, Prusia and Memel, capital Prussia
LAT = Livland Order with Estonia, Latvia and COurland
LAT is vassal of PRU
2. In 1525
Event for PRU with choices:
a) PRU reformed and vassal of Poland as Prussia, LAT independent
b) LAT annexed by PRU, PRU in war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
c) war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
3. Event "The fate of TO" changed to "The fate of Livland Order"
Originally posted by Awomaru
OK - I was wrong. Having read some materials on this subject I agree that after 1237/8 Swordbrothers were united with Teutonic Order.
But this doesn't mean that provinces of tag LAT (Estland, Livland, Kurland), should be treated as part of Teutonic Order.
First, political reality of this area about 1400 means 5 so called domini terrae (Landeherren):
1. landmeister of Teutonic Order
2. archbishop of Riga
3. bishop of Ozylia
4. bishop of Dorpat
5. bishop of Kurland
The landmeister of TO, holding about 70% of area, was in constant political struggle with all others and succesfully subordinated them before 1410. But the battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg in 1410 caused important changes in position of Teutonic Order. The church states regained independence and the role of knights and cities rose up.
Note, please, that against what EU2 map shows, there was no land connection between Prussia and Kurland - it's known error. I feel (and most historicians too), that Kurland, Livland and Estland were not just part of Teutonic Order, but subordinated - in terms of EU2 - vassalized - area.
So fortunately to my idea
I still argue that Teutonic Order should be connected to PRU and not to LAT, and what is more important tag LAT should be vassal of PRU.
So let me repeat my idea in this shape:
1. In 1419
PRU = Teutonic Order with Danzig, Prusia and Memel, capital Prussia
LAT = Livland Order with Estonia, Latvia and COurland
LAT is vassal of PRU
2. In 1525
Event for PRU with choices:
a) PRU reformed and vassal of Poland as Prussia, LAT independent
b) LAT annexed by PRU, PRU in war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
c) war with Poland and Lithania, religous toumoils in PRU
3. Event "The fate of TO" changed to "The fate of Livland Order"
As to the Sword Brothers... heh we all make mistakes =)
Prussia and Courland boarder shouldn't exist... agreed...
Although the Livland Order existed in 1419, I don't believe they did all that much historically, but hey I'm game if it belongs it should be there... but in your scenario the TO 100% dies... and it brings out an order that just didn't seem to be of much importance, or so it seems... just would of expected more info on it =)... but I need to check on it at home, and unfortunately I'm at work =(
but the Capital of the order should be Marienburg Prussia... but would cause gameplay problems with prussia forming later on....
just like on a tangent why the capital of mecklemburg lubeck instead of schwerin, historically neither were together....
1. In history Tetonic Order "died" in Prussia in 1525 and Livland Order existed another 50 years.
2. Please, look at point b or c of my sceanrio - they allow TO to exist beyond year 1525...
You can't use the PRU tag for both the TO and Prussia - you can only change the name by changing country tags. You'd need to use the LAT and PRU tgs, and use a new tag for the Livland Order. There are a few extras, so it's doable.
If you set up the Livland Order, what does its shield look like? Who are its monarchs?
And more importantly, how do you keep the Poland-Lithuania alliance from wiping out both orders before 1525?
If you set up the Livland Order, what does its shield look like? Who are its monarchs?
And more importantly, how do you keep the Poland-Lithuania alliance from wiping out both orders before 1525?
Well, I'm not EU scripter, so maybe you're right. All I know is that Timurid change to Moghul and Castillia to Spain, so I imgaine that it could be done with Teutonic Order and Prussia. Maybe someone like Havard or other EEP genius could explain this?
Yes, I set up (wrongly) Swordbrothers Order (instead of Livland Order
), but didn't care about shiled and monarchs. As regards monarchs, it's only problem of period before 1525, 'coz we have list of Livland Order after this date in monarchs.lat. Before 1525 they should be Livland's landmeisters - I will try to complete the list. (Especially monarchsGood question.
I think that both Poland and Lithuania are much too strong and much to agressive in the beginning of GC. Few things should be done:
1) in poland.ai
a) war = 10 (not 50)
b) combat = { PRU } and not combat = { PRU KUR LAT RUS } as is now
2) Mazovia should be vassal of Poland (Mazovia untill before 1526 was more independent from Poland than, let say, Orleanais)
3) manpower in eastern and southern provinces of Lithuania should go low
4) we could create events regarding period after the death of Lithuanian grand duke, Witold, in 1439. Lithuania was stroke by civil war and one of fighting parts made alliance with TO and Livland Order against Poland...
And last, but not least: remember that in history Poland started war with TO just in 1419, as it happens in EU2 all the time
AlanC9 is correct. The Timurid->Mughal and Castilla->Spain changes are done with tag changes.
AFAIK their surcoat was white with a red cross above a red sword. Don't know how that could be squezed into a shield though...
Here you are: the list of landmeisters of Livland Order in period 1419 - 1525:
Siegried Lander von Spanheim, 1415-1424
Cysse von Rutenberg, 1424-1433
Frank von Kersdorf, 1433-1435
Heinrich von Buckenorde, 1435-1437
Heinrich Vincke von Oberbergen, 1438-1450
Johann von Mengden, 1450-1469
Johann Wolthusen von Heerse, 1470-1471
Bernhard von dem Borch, 1471-1483
Johann Freitag von Loringhof, 1483-1494
Walther von Plettenberg, 1494-1535
Please note: the last one is the same as "Wolter von Plettenberg" in monarchs.lat. He started independent rules in January (AFAIRemember) 1525, BEFORE Albrecht von Hohenzollern converted to lutherianism.
Siegried Lander von Spanheim, 1415-1424
Cysse von Rutenberg, 1424-1433
Frank von Kersdorf, 1433-1435
Heinrich von Buckenorde, 1435-1437
Heinrich Vincke von Oberbergen, 1438-1450
Johann von Mengden, 1450-1469
Johann Wolthusen von Heerse, 1470-1471
Bernhard von dem Borch, 1471-1483
Johann Freitag von Loringhof, 1483-1494
Walther von Plettenberg, 1494-1535
Please note: the last one is the same as "Wolter von Plettenberg" in monarchs.lat. He started independent rules in January (AFAIRemember) 1525, BEFORE Albrecht von Hohenzollern converted to lutherianism.