That confusing Teutonic Order

[Greebo]

This might have been discussed already, but I'd be most thankful if someone shed some light on the matter...just for me

According to my limited knowledge, obtained in a school most ordinary, the Teutonic Order ceased to exist as a territory in 1525. Yet there is an event in the 1560's called 'the fate of the TO', which in most cases results in the creation of Courland etc. Now, that's all correct, except that I've always been told that Courland was spawned from something called (pardon the crude translation) 'The Order of Sword Chevaliers' (Zakon Kawalerow Mieczowych), which apparently apart from being a knightly order had little to do with the TO. Were they 'merged' with the TO for simplicity, or are there some connections between the two orders that I'm not aware of?

 

[unmerged(6828)]

in 1525 prussia was created from the secularization of the TO by their last grandmaster, a suborder, the swordbrother knights formed courland, all other territories were assimilated

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Jacob Oppenheim
in 1525 prussia was created from the secularization of the TO by their last grandmaster, a suborder, the swordbrother knights formed courland, all other territories were assimilated

*I am Poland of Borg. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated*

(Sorry - couldn't resist that one )

The Swordbrothers were formed in 1202 to aid in the conquest of Livonia and Estonia. They merged with the Teutonic order in 1237, but remained partly antonomous with their own Grand Master. As mentioned the TO was secularized into Prussia in 1525, while the Swordbrothers still held Latvia. In 1561 the last Grandmaster of the Swordbrothers became the first Duke of Kurland.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Havard


*I am Poland of Borg. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated*

(Sorry - couldn't resist that one )

The Swordbrothers were formed in 1202 to aid in the conquest of Livonia and Estonia. They merged with the Teutonic order in 1237, but remained partly antonomous with their own Grand Master. As mentioned the TO was secularized into Prussia in 1525, while the Swordbrothers still held Latvia. In 1561 the last Grandmaster of the Swordbrothers became the first Duke of Kurland.

The question is, why it isn't so in EU II?

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Maur13

The question is, why it isn't so in EU II?

EU2 simplifies a lot of similar relationships. The fact that the Swordbrothers were a part of the TO make is reasonable to only have one order in the area (otherwise you could e.g. end up with the two waging war on each other etc). I have no problem with this.

 

[unmerged(5746)]

I've got a question concerning this subject... if the Teutonic order does no longer exists at the time of that event, sweden and poland won't get any shields on those provinces, am I right? That would be quite sad...

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Havard


EU2 simplifies a lot of similar relationships. The fact that the Swordbrothers were a part of the TO make is reasonable to only have one order in the area (otherwise you could e.g. end up with the two waging war on each other etc). I have no problem with this.

But there are two orders in EU II! (At least if Prussia represents... eh, you know). Though due to vassalage they don't often war against each other.

 

[Greebo]

I suppose the answer is 'For simplicity's sake', which suits me just fine, it's not like Paradox is going to go chasing and fixing every detail that pops up.

Now on to the next subject, from what I've gathered it's a big problem to keep Prussia and Brandenburg alive all the way til 1618, so that they can actually form that big mean Prussia that will at some point take part in the partitions of Poland...now my question is: Why is there a Prussia in 1419 at all? What does it represent? Here's my solution, which might be wrong, yadda yadda, take it or leave it:

a) Prussian provinces belong to the Teutonic Order, no polish CB shields on them (well, if you want to be historically correct, you could make the 1454 uprising and the 'incorporation privelage' into an event for permament/temporary CB)

b) An event in 1525 that gives the TO two choices: Either remain a knightly order, or secularize and form Prussia, and be a polish vassal (hopefully if they're a polish vassal they won't get attacked by Poland, and 1525-1618 is a shorter time to last than 1419-1618 ), there are tools for coding that methinks (the Russian transformation, and Timurids -> Mughals). The event could be triggered with the fact that in 1525 the TO still has those prussian provinces.

c) Now there still are those northern provinces, all the way to the Gulf of Finland. Granted those provinces are still in the TO possession, the best solution would be to create a new country there - the infamous swordbearer knights, or however they are called. I think such an option is coded already, for the 1560's event (if the TO still has the Prussian provinces, then Prussia is formed). That would, of course, call for the creation of a completely new country, which might not be within the power of regular EU2 drones...but hey, this is the Utopia. I won't try it - I lack the skills, you do what you want

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Events can be triggered by owning Prussia province as I don't know what Memel stands for. If for Zmudz it should be lithuanian culture and have Lithuanian CB too. Netherlands can emerge - why Prussia not? As a protestant state in 1525 and vassal of Poland. Poland shouldn't have any CB on Prussia or Brandenburg to preventing annex and good relations to them. I don't know whether chance of refusing to diploannex can be coded - if yes Prussia and Brandenburg may be granted that against polish tries.
Btw, if strong TO would be created in 1419 (no Prussia), Prussia can emerge in 1525. Being protestant is enough to block any diploannex from Poland.

 

[unmerged(485)]

Originally posted by Havard


....................

(Sorry - couldn't resist that one )

......................

Of course not - because resistance is futile!

 

[unmerged(2833)]

The problem is that Poland AI agressivenes was rased from about 15 to 50, resulting in way to high number of wars...

 

[unmerged(3408)]

Originally posted by Havard


*I am Poland of Borg. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated*

(Sorry - couldn't resist that one )

God, this reminds me. As Prussia (which is sorta On Topic) last night I vassalized Poland by 1424. My inflation....187% (in five years! due to repeated bankrupcies from taking out so many loans to finance the war).

No assimilation for little ol Prussia.

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Greebo
Here's my solution, which might be wrong, yadda yadda, take it or leave it:

a) Prussian provinces belong to the Teutonic Order, no polish CB shields on them (well, if you want to be historically correct, you could make the 1454 uprising and the 'incorporation privelage' into an event for permament/temporary CB)

b) An event in 1525 that gives the TO two choices: Either remain a knightly order, or secularize and form Prussia, and be a polish vassal (hopefully if they're a polish vassal they won't get attacked by Poland, and 1525-1618 is a shorter time to last than 1419-1618 ), there are tools for coding that methinks (the Russian transformation, and Timurids -> Mughals). The event could be triggered with the fact that in 1525 the TO still has those prussian provinces.

c) Now there still are those northern provinces, all the way to the Gulf of Finland. Granted those provinces are still in the TO possession, the best solution would be to create a new country there - the infamous swordbearer knights, or however they are called. I think such an option is coded already, for the 1560's event (if the TO still has the Prussian provinces, then Prussia is formed). That would, of course, call for the creation of a completely new country, which might not be within the power of regular EU2 drones...but hey, this is the Utopia. I won't try it - I lack the skills, you do what you want

I like most of this, but maybe we don't need to use another tag for the Sword Brothers. Why not simply keep using the TO tag for the Sword Brothers after 1525? In a sense, the Sword Brothers were all that was left of the TO after Albrecht bailed on them. So the 1525 event would have Prussia seceding from the TO and becoming a Polish vassal, and the TO continues to exist, now representing the Sword Brothers.

Here's another idea: when 1615 rolls around, how about letting the Brandenburg inheritance happen even if Poland owns Prussia outright? If Poland owns Prussia when the inheritance happens, Prussia is seceded to Brandenburg, and Brandenburg becomes a Polish vassal. The Brandenburg situation is a bit complex, but this seems a good way to handle it - and it does make Prussia a bit more likely to appear again in the 1700s. (Actually, it'd mess up event dependencies less if we seceded Prussia from and immediately triggered Brandenburg event 3636, which causes Brandenburg to inherit Prussia).

Anyone want to see code for this?

 

[unmerged(1996)]

Well, just to confuse the issue a little more...

I'm playing a turbo (no AAR...) games as Sweden at the moment. It's only 1476, and already the Teutonic Order through some changes. In 1450 or so, their their government fell and they lost Pskov to independence (third time of occurrence), Courland was formed in Kurland and I personally picked up Danzig.

Meanwhile, Prussia was annexed by Denmark in two separate wars round about 1440 or so, and Brandenburg was diplo-annexed by Lithuania, after Lithuania took Hessen. Then, in 1465-ish, Brandenburg and the province to the east rebelled against Lithuania (name escapes me) and formed... Prussia!

Bizarre...

 

[PJL]

I think the best way to solve this would be to do the following, as the oringal Prussia is such an important part in the formation of Brandenberg-Prussia:

1. Get rid of Prussia in the 1419 scenario (and th 1492 one too) - if it was wasn't created until 1525 they why is it there in the first place?) Make Prussia's lands part of the Teutonic Order.

2. Move the captial of the TO to the Prussia province, so ihat it cannot be captured unless it is the last one standing (and therefore annexable). That way whatever happens to the TO, there's a good chance that Prussia can form in the right place later.

3. In 1525 change name of country from TO to Prussia, but leave all lands as it is.

4. In 1560 split country into whatever it's supposed to do, into Courland, etc (with Prussia and Memel staying as Prussia).

That way, a 2 province Prussia only needs 40 or so years before it's a vassal of Brandenburg (or whatever it is).

Ideally (not sure if this is possible) Prussia should form as a revolter province in the Prussia/Memel area up to the Brandenberg annexation, and then in the Brandenberg area thereafter (with Brandenberg ceasing to be a revolter province)

 

[AlanC9]

I like the idea of moving the TO capital to Prussia (gets around some problems), but keeping all the lands together in 1525 doesn't make sense - the Teutonic Order was divided in 1525.

I'm pretty sure that we can't have two different entries for Prussia in revolt.txt, which is a pity. Perhaps we should just use the Prussia revolter for pre-Brandenburg Prussia (if the Kingdom of Prussia forms and is then conquered.,, it will revolt as Brandenburg, not Prussia). this gets around some revolt oddities too.

 

[AlanC9]

I've posted something similar to the above idea in the EEP Central Europe thread. Maybe it'll make it into the next EEP release.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by PJL
I think the best way to solve this would be to do the following, as the oringal Prussia is such an important part in the formation of Brandenberg-Prussia:

1. Get rid of Prussia in the 1419 scenario (and th 1492 one too) - if it was wasn't created until 1525 they why is it there in the first place?) Make Prussia's lands part of the Teutonic Order.

2. Move the captial of the TO to the Prussia province, so ihat it cannot be captured unless it is the last one standing (and therefore annexable). That way whatever happens to the TO, there's a good chance that Prussia can form in the right place later.

3. In 1525 change name of country from TO to Prussia, but leave all lands as it is.

4. In 1560 split country into whatever it's supposed to do, into Courland, etc (with Prussia and Memel staying as Prussia).

That way, a 2 province Prussia only needs 40 or so years before it's a vassal of Brandenburg (or whatever it is).

Ideally (not sure if this is possible) Prussia should form as a revolter province in the Prussia/Memel area up to the Brandenberg annexation, and then in the Brandenberg area thereafter (with Brandenberg ceasing to be a revolter province)

Acceptable but what about Danzig?
It definitely should be polish since 1466. I like the idea of another event "13 Years War" with main option of seceding Danzig and creating CoT there.

 

[AlanC9]

If Poland has a CB shield on Danzig, I guarantee they'll take it from the TO well before 1466. An event to start the war would be nice, but it's hardly necessary. Poland-Lithuania will thrash the TO at some point.

I've posted events to implement my variant of this scheme here:EEP Central Europe

I haven't included the scenario setup files. I can put them in the thread if anyone doesn't feel comfortable doing the necessary edits. I haven't been able to run a GC with this yet, so I don't know how well it works.

 

[Styrbiorn]

I've got a question concerning this subject... if the Teutonic order does no longer exists at the time of that event, sweden and poland won't get any shields on those provinces, am I right? That would be quite sad...

There are an event giving Sweden both baltic culture and CB shields on Estonia, Livland, and Courland.