Thanks, HW system. This wouldn't be possible without you

[Lider_Picaro]

I swear I didn't do anything this time. I was playing in Italy. I remember checking on Spain some time ago and saw that the Asturians had beaten the Umayyads for Segovia. Remember how I made a couple post raging about the fact that if the Segovian guy converted and then died the duchy was lost due to inheritance to the Andalusian caliph? Well, this time it was the caliph who died first in a battle and the converted Segovian inherited Al-Andalus.

While I apreciate the intention behind the new HW system outcomes like this are unacceptable. I would expect the devs to take note from this and either modify it in some way (I was already told interreligious inheritances are impossible to get rid of), come with a completely new system, or go back to vanilla HW. Or at least make a game rule to choose what system we want to use. I mean, I love this mod, that's why I'm so pissed about this thing. It's like eating a chocolate cake with a little shit inside.

 

[TheDovahkiin97]

The next heir is musilm so i dont see the problem.
Vassals will revolt anyways and take his throne...

It's like eating a chocolate cake with a little shit inside.

A man of true culture.

 

[Lider_Picaro]

The next heir is musilm so i dont see the problem.
Vassals will revolt anyways and take his throne...

A man of true culture.

He now has a catholic son. 20 years later still no revolts. He even converted 2 more dukes.

 

[myrt]

He now has a catholic son. 20 years later still no revolts. He even converted 2 more dukes.

Sounds like the AI is cheating a little, what do his vassals think of him?

 

[Ese Khan]

I would expect the devs to take note from this and either modify it in some way (I was already told interreligious inheritances are impossible to get rid of), come with a completely new system, or go back to vanilla HW. Or at least make a game rule to choose what system we want to use. I mean, I love this mod,

You might find more support if you posted this in the CK2 Suggestions forums. As you also realize, the kind of inheritance that you see in itself is perfectly normal in terms of base game mechanics.

Also, generally speaking, I believe that it makes things easier for everyone if you actually come up with a possible solution. With bug reports it's enough to just point out the obvious, but we are dealing here with something more complex (in terms the possible work involved).

 

[Lider_Picaro]

You might find more support if you posted this in the CK2 Suggestions forums. As you also realize, the kind of inheritance that you see in itself is perfectly normal in terms of base game mechanics.

Also, generally speaking, I believe that it makes things easier for everyone if you actually come up with a possible solution. With bug reports it's enough to just point out the obvious, but we are dealing here with something more complex (in terms the possible work involved).

Well as a possible solution I already suggested a game rule to choose between this and vanilla. Or maybe make it so that if a dinasty member has a landed title the ruler will never convert. I don't know how easy it would be to mod that but I'm no modder, it's just a suggestion.

I don't think posting on CK2 Suggestions is better, since this is a problem created by a mechanic of this mod. When I used to play vanilla I never found a problem like this. Also, now that I come think of it, banning interreligious inheritances would also include inheritance among heretics, which is fun and more realistic. The problem is not with vanilla, it's with a mod feature that gives outrageus results. In addition while it may make sense somewhere in the map(I don't know for sure), I think it makes no sense in Spain, since in rencoquered lands descentants of muslims were seen as second class citizens even after converting. I don't think there were many tolerant conversion of rulers

 

[Toa Kraka]

(I was already told interreligious inheritances are impossible to get rid of)

I feel very skeptical of this claim. Yes, the hardcoded inheritance can't be circumvented--but EMF's viceroyalty system already provides a framework for redirecting the hardcoded inheritance after it has taken place. This solution may confuse some of the AI's schemes for determining who is a good candidate for marriage, but that's a minor price to pay (and, again, one that already has been paid in the viceroyalty system).

Also, generally speaking, I believe that it makes things easier for everyone if you actually come up with a possible solution.

If a title is inherited by someone of a different religious group, it immediately is usurped by a candidate chosen from the following list (in descending order of preference):
- A same-religion strong claimant
- A same-religion-group, non-heretic strong claimant
- A same-religion-group, heretic strong claimant
- A same-religion weak claimant
- A same-religion-group, non-heretic weak claimant
- A same-religion-group, heretic weak claimant
- A same-religion vassal
- A same-religion-group, non-heretic vassal
- A same-religion-group, heretic vassal
- (title is not usurped)

 

[Ispil]

You're not really grasping at the actual issue here- it's not an issue with holy wars or interreligious marriages. It's an issue with inheritance of titles and the "established religion" of said titles. That is a nontrivial problem to solve, and comes up in more than just holy war matters- it's the same reason why the ERE often goes Catholic, or various Karling branches go Orthodox. At one point a title becomes strongly associated with a particular religion, and it requires specific effort on behalf of a ruler to change that (zealous, ambitious, etc.; the traits that coincidentally block converting due to holy war). Generally a non-landed ruler (or ruler of lower rank) inheriting a title with an established religion would convert to said religion, particularly leading into the coronation process. I mention established religion here because oftentimes things get messy- Vladimir of Bulgaria remained pagan despite his father being Orthodox, and attempted to undo the process his father started (until his father returned and kicked him off the throne in favor of Simeon).

So it's more that we need a mechanic representing the "religious momentum" of a realm that makes it more resistant to change, based on various factors. All this talk about holy wars and interreligious marriages are just minor aspects of the overall problem, which is that all it takes is one oddball heir to flip the ERE to Jewish. Holy wars and interreligious marriages are just two ways that such an heir could appear, but they are not the only way. This overall mechanic ignores that specific mechanism that results in cross-religious inheritance, in favor of solving the problem at exactly where it occurs- inheritance.

 

[Toa Kraka]

You're

I'll assume you're responding to this post, even though you inexplicably failed to use this forum's extremely-convenient feature of quoting the post to which you're responding.

You're not really grasping at the actual issue here- it's not an issue with holy wars or interreligious marriages. It's an issue with inheritance of titles and the "established religion" of said titles.[...] So it's more that we need a mechanic representing the "religious momentum" of a realm that makes it more resistant to change, based on various factors.

That sounds far too unnecessarily abstract.

Let's compare this proposed "Religious Entrenchment" title variable to the existing "Imperial Decay" title variable. IIRC (though I may be wrong), the point of Imperial Decay (other than the meta concern of reducing blobbing) is to make tangible something that CK2's traits and characters can't represent: the bureaucracy and corruption of the many non-ruler administrators that are necessary for the coordinated extraction of money and troops from a large, urbanized empire. For this topic, an abstract variable is necessary because there's no other way to represent bureaucracy in-game (beyond a giant system of imperial-administrator minor titles for courtiers, I guess, but that sounds very complicated to implement). In contrast, CK2 already represents the resistance or amenability of ruling characters to other religions with the Zealous, Cynical, and Sympathy to (the Religious Group of the Incoming Ruler) traits, and I see no need to replace that existing structure with an additional variable abstractly measuring whether each title has a "vassal culture" that is "zealous", "cynical", or "sympathetic to (the religious group of the incoming ruler)".

As long as vassals encourage their heirs to match their own Zealous, Cynical, and Sympathy to (Religious Group) traits (and, if they don't, they can be made to do so), CK2 already provides a "Religious Entrenchment" mechanic. There's no need to make things more abstract.

Generally a non-landed ruler (or ruler of lower rank) inheriting a title with an established religion would convert to said religion, particularly leading into the coronation process.

I intentionally didn't include something like that in my previous post because I was trying to keep it as simple as possible (and was even thinking of dashing off a mod for it). If you insist, though, I'll add it...

Proposal: Whenever a character of a different religion inherits a title, check all the religions and religious traits of his prospective vassals. If they're sufficiently homogenous and they're sufficiently hostile to his religion, they may instantly present to him an ultimatum and demand that he either convert to their religion or abdicate to a claimant of their religion (or, if no such claimant exists, to one of them). He must choose one of those options--he can't fight a civil war, because he isn't even the ruler yet (though, by necessity, the game will be showing him as a ruler at this time). If he converts, everything's fine--maybe he still secretly adheres to his previous religion. (I don't know anything about how secret religions work. Maybe this event also fires whenever a non-new ruler converts religion.) If he doesn't convert, he gets a strong claim when he's forced to give up the title, so maybe he can get somebody else to press it for him.

 

[Lider_Picaro]

Both of you said something about traits like zealous influencing the AI decision to convert after a holy war. I assure you that if its coded like that then its not working as intended. I have seen my old Umayyad friend turn from zealous suni to zealous catholic. Therefore I always asumed that it was 50-50.

 

[zijistark]

I'll assume you're responding to this post, even though you inexplicably failed to use this forum's extremely-convenient feature of quoting the post to which you're responding.

That sounds far too unnecessarily abstract.

Let's compare this proposed "Religious Entrenchment" title variable to the existing "Imperial Decay" title variable. IIRC (though I may be wrong), the point of Imperial Decay (other than the meta concern of reducing blobbing) is to make tangible something that CK2's traits and characters can't represent: the bureaucracy and corruption of the many non-ruler administrators that are necessary for the coordinated extraction of money and troops from a large, urbanized empire. For this topic, an abstract variable is necessary because there's no other way to represent bureaucracy in-game (beyond a giant system of imperial-administrator minor titles for courtiers, I guess, but that sounds very complicated to implement). In contrast, CK2 already represents the resistance or amenability of ruling characters to other religions with the Zealous, Cynical, and Sympathy to (the Religious Group of the Incoming Ruler) traits, and I see no need to replace that existing structure with an additional variable abstractly measuring whether each title has a "vassal culture" that is "zealous", "cynical", or "sympathetic to (the religious group of the incoming ruler)".

As long as vassals encourage their heirs to match their own Zealous, Cynical, and Sympathy to (Religious Group) traits (and, if they don't, they can be made to do so), CK2 already provides a "Religious Entrenchment" mechanic. There's no need to make things more abstract.


I intentionally didn't include something like that in my previous post because I was trying to keep it as simple as possible (and was even thinking of dashing off a mod for it). If you insist, though, I'll add it...

Proposal: Whenever a character of a different religion inherits a title, check all the religions and religious traits of his prospective vassals. If they're sufficiently homogenous and they're sufficiently hostile to his religion, they may instantly present to him an ultimatum and demand that he either convert to their religion or abdicate to a claimant of their religion (or, if no such claimant exists, to one of them). He must choose one of those options--he can't fight a civil war, because he isn't even the ruler yet (though, by necessity, the game will be showing him as a ruler at this time). If he converts, everything's fine--maybe he still secretly adheres to his previous religion. (I don't know anything about how secret religions work. Maybe this event also fires whenever a non-new ruler converts religion.) If he doesn't convert, he gets a strong claim when he's forced to give up the title, so maybe he can get somebody else to press it for him.

So, before you waste any more breath (no offense intended), please understand that I've already designed [but not yet implemented -- you can probably get a sense for how little time I have for regular modding projects these days] a solution to this problem. You seem to have interpreted @Ispil's meaning regarding "religious momentum" as some kind of aggregate title variable, but I assume he was just referring to something along the lines of that in my proposed design -- something that holds a tiny bit of history re: religious momentum, basically whether the prev 2 rulers that ruled until either the end of their lives or willful abdication (i.e., not due to losing a civil war) had the same religion and, if so, what religion was that. That information + the religious breakdown of direct vassals in the realm at the time of inheritance should be used to inform the AI's decision about whether to simply convert immediately upon ascension or to resist and likely be thrown off the throne (with enhanced mechanics for vassals actually responding to such a thing much more quickly and directly than they currently do).

 

[Phalanx_]

If a title is inherited by someone of a different religious group, it immediately is usurped by a candidate chosen from the following list (in descending order of preference):
- A same-religion strong claimant
- A same-religion-group, non-heretic strong claimant
- A same-religion-group, heretic strong claimant
- A same-religion weak claimant
- A same-religion-group, non-heretic weak claimant
- A same-religion-group, heretic weak claimant
- A same-religion vassal
- A same-religion-group, non-heretic vassal
- A same-religion-group, heretic vassal
- (title is not usurped)

There is a small problem with this proposition, seeing as there are regions where there are multiple religious groups in the same realm, such as Pagans in regions converted to Islam/Christianity (ie. Bulgaria and Sweden) and Manicheans, Zoroastrians, Christians, Buddhists and Muslims in the Tengri steppes.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Sounds like the AI is cheating a little, what do his vassals think of him?

This happens quite often in game. I usually play with the slowest conversion rules, but still realms are very easily turned into heresies or even different religion when the ruler converts for some reason. This is quite an immersion breaker.

 

[Undead Martyr]

There is a small problem with this proposition, seeing as there are regions where there are multiple religious groups in the same realm, such as Pagans in regions converted to Islam/Christianity (ie. Bulgaria and Sweden) and Manicheans, Zoroastrians, Christians, Buddhists and Muslims in the Tengri steppes.

I think it would be better if different religion characters can just plot/start factions to overthrow the liege (maybe the Pope gives a local duke a claim on a pagan overlord's primary title or something). If there are massive numbers of heathens then they should naturally gravitate towards pretender factions of their own religion.