Teutonic Order: Historical Friend of Bohemia, Ruler of Livonia.

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Martin_Mortyry

A pretentious asshole who thinks he knows history
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Out of 5 starts I've done with Teutonic Order in 1.12, only once Bohemia didn't rival me. Pretty weird, considering their excellent relations with TO since XIII century.
Bohemian kings took part in pretty much every pruthenian crusade, what's more - one of the main Teutonic cities in that area - Königsberg was named in honour of king Ottokar II of Bohemia.
Later, in 1308, when the Order took Danzig(breaking all their relations with Poland, justifying historical rivalry between these countries) Czechs were first to recognise their claim on the city, defending it in all court cases. Since then, every time Poland fought with the Knights of Cross, it also had to prepare for war with Bohemia - threats comming from Bohemian ruler in 1411 were one of the reasons why the Great Polish-Lithuanian - Teutonic War(1409-1411) resulted only in return of Dobrzyń Land to Poland, Mazovia regaining Zawkrze and Lithuania getting back Žemaitija with port city of Palanga (which should also be the case in EU4, Paradox...). Even after Poland vassalised Teutonic Order in 1466, Bohemia supported their independence, though they didn't de facto join the War of Priests nor war of 1519, if I remember correctly, they've been sending their troops to TO during both independence wars. As you can see, there was quite a friendship between Bohemia and Teutonic Knights.

The other thing, that I've already mentioned, is Samogitia. This region used to be a vital strategic point of Baltic. Žemaitija was also connecting Teutonic Knights with their possessions in Livonia, which they gained in 1236 after Brothers' of the Sword defeat in battle of Saule. This is the reason why Goldingen shouldn't border Memel - to show how weak Knights of the Cross have become - they can't even control what should be their subject or even part of their realm. But not everything's lost for them - if they were to defeat their centuries old rival and reclaim Samogitia they should be given a decision to incorporate Livonian Order, though giving them personal union over LO would be more historically accurate(while both countries had their mastersthey were subjects to the Grand Master who was often Country Master of Prussia at the same time), I doubt the game mechanics would allow that(on the other hand, it would be really cool and ironic reference to Polish decision). Of course, the sheer conquest of Samogitia is not enough of a challenge to let Teutonic Order click on the decision - they should also own Noteć(I'd also suggest dividing this province - in comparison to the rest it looks gigantic and out of place) or one of Mazovian provinces, and be ruled by an exceptional ruler(with at least one attribute at level 5, not a single attribute below 3) + maybe some minor requirements.

I hope there will be someone to read through this wall of text and share his opinion on the subject. Thanks for attention. :)


Oh, by the way, part of Lettgallen province on the other side of Daugava river should be part of Mitau, as shown here. It would represent more accurate borders for Duchy of Courland.
 
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Alexona

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You should also make that argument for Poles and Hungarians then, as even to this day they still see themselves as "historical friends", yet in the game they end up loving Austria instead. Austria should fight for the Hungarian throne as they did historically, not just get a free alliance with them against Poland. But Paradox obviously just wanted to balance things out here, since Poland with Lithuania is already powerful and with Hungary as its ally, Poland would become even more OP. But historically it would make sense.

Back to the gameplay mechanics though, you emphasize the supposed historical aspect of that modifier but the thing is that its influence is far greater than what any historical sentiments ever meant in the world of geopolitics, and very much contemporary as well as future-oriented, if I may put it this way. ;) In practice it often ensures that the chosen countries stay in a good relationship for long if not for the entire timeline of the game.

I do, however, agree that it's way too easy to conquer Teutons as Poland, in reality Poland had it much harder and indeed Teutons received some help from various HRE members and such, which perhaps should be somehow represented in the game by some event chain - maybe something similar to France's and Portugal's involvement in the Castilian Civil War? If Poland attacks Teutons, they should be able to receive at least indirect help from the HRE via events increasing their manpower and available mercenaries pool and/or temporarily reducing the cost of hiring mercenaries - what do you think about this idea?
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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I do, however, agree that it's way too easy to conquer Teutons as Poland, in reality Poland had it much harder and indeed Teutons received some help from various HRE members and such, which perhaps should be somehow represented in the game by some event chain - maybe something similar to France's and Portugal's involvement in the Castilian CIvil War? If Poland attacks Teutons, they should be able to receive at least indirect help from the HR via events increasing their manpower and available mercenaries pool and/or temporarily reducing the cost of hiring mercenaries - what do you think about this idea?
Now that's a pretty good idea. :) But I think the Teutons need a little bit of more direct help, and Bohemia is the most making sense help from historical point of view. Though, I admit, Czechs are pretty overpowered since the last patch.
 
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Sharp163

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I'm not fond of the historical friendship in the game at all. In Politics there are no friends, there are only interests.

So all the support of the TO was it just because they were drinking buddys or maybe was there a profit in weakening poland for the king of bohemia.
The whole point of the "historical friend" bonus is to prevent certain nations from rivaling each other, which would happen without the modifier. I guarantee that if Poland and Lithuania weren't historical friends, they would rival each other on day one... :(

I like the idea of a historical friendship between TO and Bohemia :D
 
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The dragon of bhutan

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I think the livonian case is quite interesting, but a historical order would be so divided that the personal union wouldn't mean anything. In vanilla eu4 however, this would make for a great alternate history. Maybe even allow the teutons and the pope to declare new orders in conquered land (similair to client states).