Teutonic Order: Historical Friend of Bohemia, Ruler of Livonia.

Teutonic Order: Historical Friend of Bohemia, Ruler of Livonia.

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Martin_Mortyry

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Out of 5 starts I've done with Teutonic Order in 1.12, only once Bohemia didn't rival me. Pretty weird, considering their excellent relations with TO since XIII century.
Bohemian kings took part in pretty much every pruthenian crusade, what's more - one of the main Teutonic cities in that area - Königsberg was named in honour of king Ottokar II of Bohemia.
Later, in 1308, when the Order took Danzig(breaking all their relations with Poland, justifying historical rivalry between these countries) Czechs were first to recognise their claim on the city, defending it in all court cases. Since then, every time Poland fought with the Knights of Cross, it also had to prepare for war with Bohemia - threats comming from Bohemian ruler in 1411 were one of the reasons why the Great Polish-Lithuanian - Teutonic War(1409-1411) resulted only in return of Dobrzyń Land to Poland, Mazovia regaining Zawkrze and Lithuania getting back Žemaitija with port city of Palanga (which should also be the case in EU4, Paradox...). Even after Poland vassalised Teutonic Order in 1466, Bohemia supported their independence, though they didn't de facto join the War of Priests nor war of 1519, if I remember correctly, they've been sending their troops to TO during both independence wars. As you can see, there was quite a friendship between Bohemia and Teutonic Knights.

The other thing, that I've already mentioned, is Samogitia. This region used to be a vital strategic point of Baltic. Žemaitija was also connecting Teutonic Knights with their possessions in Livonia, which they gained in 1236 after Brothers' of the Sword defeat in battle of Saule. This is the reason why Goldingen shouldn't border Memel - to show how weak Knights of the Cross have become - they can't even control what should be their subject or even part of their realm. But not everything's lost for them - if they were to defeat their centuries old rival and reclaim Samogitia they should be given a decision to incorporate Livonian Order, though giving them personal union over LO would be more historically accurate(while both countries had their mastersthey were subjects to the Grand Master who was often Country Master of Prussia at the same time), I doubt the game mechanics would allow that(on the other hand, it would be really cool and ironic reference to Polish decision). Of course, the sheer conquest of Samogitia is not enough of a challenge to let Teutonic Order click on the decision - they should also own Noteć(I'd also suggest dividing this province - in comparison to the rest it looks gigantic and out of place) or one of Mazovian provinces, and be ruled by an exceptional ruler(with at least one attribute at level 5, not a single attribute below 3) + maybe some minor requirements.

I hope there will be someone to read through this wall of text and share his opinion on the subject. Thanks for attention. :)


Oh, by the way, part of Lettgallen province on the other side of Daugava river should be part of Mitau, as shown here. It would represent more accurate borders for Duchy of Courland.
 

Woifee

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I'm not fond of the historical friendship in the game at all. In Politics there are no friends, there are only interests.

So all the support of the TO was it just because they were drinking buddys or maybe was there a profit in weakening poland for the king of bohemia.
 

grommile

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I'm not fond of the historical friendship in the game at all. In Politics there are no friends, there are only interests.
It's a fudge factor for the AI, to make certain historical outcomes possible that would normally be prevented by the game's choice of abstractions. (It is possibly too effective in this regard.)

Spain and Portugal did not have protracted European territorial wars over EU4-province-sized chunks of territory, and without the Historical Friends modifier, Poland and Lithuania would spend the whole game at each others' throats.
 

Woifee

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Yes, as a tool to prevent historical results it's great.
 

Martin_Mortyry

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I'm not fond of the historical friendship in the game at all. In Politics there are no friends, there are only interests.

So all the support of the TO was it just because they were drinking buddys or maybe was there a profit in weakening poland for the king of bohemia.
The problem is, even in the EU4 timeline they had common interest, it is - weakening Poland. They have no reason to fight eachother at all, since the last patch these countries don't even share a border.
 

Woifee

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Yes, but the solution is smarter chosing of rivals. Sometimes good rivals are these one you don't have a border with.

If in every date nations would take neighbors as rivals all the games would be the same and in no way historical.
 

grommile

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Yes, but the solution is smarter chosing of rivals. Sometimes good rivals are these one you don't have a border with.
I believe they experimented with this and found that it rendered the diplomatic game completely opaque.
 

Alexona

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I disagree with this completely. What about the Czechs fighting on the Polish-Lithuanian side at Tannenberg? What about Czech Hussites offering the Polish king their crown? And that Bohemian King who was friendly to the Teutons was himself a German...
 
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moscal

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I disagree with this completely. What about the Czechs fighting on the Polish-Lithuanian side at Tannenberg? What about Czech Hussites offering the Polish king their crown? And that Bohemian King who was friendly to the Teutons was himself a German...
But Bohemia is not only Hussites. Most of the history of the pre-Habsburg Bohemia recognized Poland as his rival.
 
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Alexona

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True, but it was before the start of EU4's timeline. During the 1st century of EU4's timeline Bohemia was dominated by Hussites who even at some point offered Bohemian crown to Poland and even though that was rejected, after the rule of Jiri z Podebrad you have Polish-Lithuanian kings from the Jagiellon dynasty sitting on the throne in Prague between the years 1471-1526.

So, no, just no, I don't think there's a need to make TO and Bohemia historical friends, Bohemia usually rivals Poland in the game anyway. If Teutons want to have an alliance with them, they should work for it, not have it given on a plate as Austria oddly has with Hungary...
 
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moscal

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In start EU4 timeline we have Bohemia living in the Hussite compromise and ;iving at a crossroads. Continuing the life with Germany or glory nationalism? Next we have civil war + religious war and Great Massacre in Bohemia.

So insufficient for the Czechs treated as historical friends anyone.
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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But Bohemia is not only Hussites. Most of the history of the pre-Habsburg Bohemia recognized Poland as his rival.
This. Poland actually helped the Hussites in their campaign to eastern Pomerania(Danzig and Tuchel in EU4) in 1433, those Czech Hussites then helped Poland in the ongoing war. Yet, relations between Poland and Bohemia were rather bad - there was a century old rivalry between them, mainly caused by both sides' claims on Silesia.
 

Alexona

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So insufficient for the Czechs treated as historical friends anyone.
Did you want to say that Czechs shouldn't have any hardcoded historical allies? If so, then we are in complete agreement. :)

This. Poland actually helped the Hussites in their campaign to eastern Pomerania(Danzig and Tuchel in EU4) in 1433, those Czech Hussites then helped Poland in the ongoing war. Yet, relations between Poland and Bohemia were rather bad - there was a century old rivalry between them, mainly caused by both sides' claims on Silesia.
If they were as bad as you seem to be trying to portray them, Czech noblemen would never have voted for a Pole to take their throne and yet they did. It was the Poles who rejected that offer fearing the Emperor's wrath as Austria initially intended to crush the Hussites completely.

And less than 3 decades after the start of the game, Bohemia was ruled by a Jagiellon. So, yeah, I'm sure Poles and Czechs must have been at each other's throats all this time the same dynasty ruled both of their respective kingdoms...
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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So, no, just no, I don't think there's a need to make TO and Bohemia historical friends, Bohemia usually rivals Poland in the game anyway. If Teutons want to have an alliance with them, they should work for it, not have it given on a plate as Austria oddly has with Hungary...
So insufficient for the Czechs treated as historical friends anyone.
Yeah, they could ally eachother... unless Bohemia sets TO as a rival or vice versa. I have a solution on how to implement historical friends between Bohemia and TO and to stay historically accurate - the modifier is dynamic, once Hungary chooses Mathias Corviunus as their new king, they lose historical friend modifier with Austria - same could be done with Bohemian friendship with the Order if it chose Jiři.
 

moscal

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This. Poland actually helped the Hussites in their campaign to eastern Pomerania(Danzig and Tuchel in EU4) in 1433, those Czech Hussites then helped Poland in the ongoing war. Yet, relations between Poland and Bohemia were rather bad - there was a century old rivalry between them, mainly caused by both sides' claims on Silesia.
But what we have in EU4 timeline? 30-year-old war and asking to Poland "helped a Protestant Czechs". By the end of the PLC relationship it was not. Poland was embroiled in baltic politics (Prussia, Kurlandia, Sweden etc.) and east (Russia, Turks etc.). After the massacre, the Czechs they did not have any any activity outside the country of the Habsburgs.

Did you want to say that Czechs shouldn't have any hardcoded historical allies? If so, then we are in complete agreement. :)
In EU4 we have "historical friends" and "historical enemies". Friends most of the time have good relations, enemies not.
 

Alexona

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Yeah, they could ally eachother... unless Bohemia sets TO as a rival or vice versa. I have a solution on how to implement historical friends between Bohemia and TO and to stay historically accurate - the modifier is dynamic, once Hungary chooses Mathias Corviunus as their new king, they lose historical friend modifier with Austria - same could be done with Bohemian friendship with the Order if it chose Jiři.
Now, that's much more sensible than your original suggestion. :) But I'd go further than that, these modifiers should indeed be truly dynamic and depend on various triggers, not only whether there's a particular king in a given country.

In EU4 we have "historical friends" and "historical enemies". Friends most of the time have good relations, enemies not.
I know that very well. What I meant is that the way you phrased your sentence didn't make sense in English and thus made it unintelligible (at least in my case), so I kindly asked and hoped for a clarification.
 

Martin_Mortyry

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But what we have in EU4 timeline?
As I've mentioned before, Bohemians sent soldiers during Thirteen Years War(though they weren't official beligerents) and they helped Teutons in at least one of their independence wars. A lot, considering that Teutonic Order is either a vassal or does not exist through most of the timeline. And anyways, it's called "historical friend" which means they had good relations prior to the game. This modifier is also for gameplay purposes(Portugal and Castile weren't really that friendly, neither were Austrians and Hungarians)
 
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Alexona

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As I've mentioned before, Bohemians sent soldiers during Thirteen Years War(though they weren't official beligerents) and they helped Teutons in at least one of their independence wars.
I've already said that I like your later, a more dynamic if I may say so, suggestion, but you should stop constantly saying that Czechs were supposedly willfully fighting against us during that time period. First of all, (if we were talking about pre-1454 Polish-Teutonic conflicts) it was not Bohemians who'd sent those soldiers but a German guy who currently occupied the Bohemian throne and was also a ruler of Branderburg and the Holy Roman Emperor at times, so seeing him as a representative of the Czech nation isn't the right thing to do in my view.

And during the Thirteen Years War, Czech, Moravian and Silesian mercenaries hired by Casimir were of a huge help to the Polish-Lithuanian forces against the Teutons. Where did you get the info about some Czechs supposedly fighting on the Teutonic side?
 

Martin_Mortyry

A pretentious asshole who thinks he knows history
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Where did you get the info about some Czechs supposedly fighting on the Teutonic side?
From Gerard Labuda and Marain Biskup's book about Teutonic Order in Prussia. It's pretty detailed, includes information about pre-Teutonic Prussia up to Prussian secularisation in 1525. I recommend it, though it's a tough read at times.
Back on topic:
you should stop constantly saying that Czechs were supposedly willfully fighting against us during that time period. First of all, (if we were talking about pre-1454 Polish-Teutonic conflicts) it was not Bohemians who'd sent those soldiers but a German guy who currently occupied the Bohemian throne
First of all, it's about the country, not the nation. In this case, the king represents the country pretty well, he was making most of decisions. Also, I'm not insisting on polish-czech rivalry, it was slowly dying off during the game's period, simmilarly to Teutonic-Bohemian friendship, but the second case was caused by the shift of influence in Bohemia(as presented in my suggestion concerning crowning Jiři a Czech king).
Anyway, if a country that was helping Teutons to get to the peak of their power for almost 200 years, that had a city called in tribute of their king isn't a historical friend(once again, historical, they had excellent relations in the past!), I sincerely don't know who is.


On the other note, I'm kind of disappointed in lack of any response to Livonian case. :(