Teutonic Order and Livonian Order

[Jester]

A discussion recently arose regarding the Balic knightly orders. Should we really have the Livonian Order as a seperate country from the Tuetonic Order ?

It would probably help the historical development of the orders and Prussia if they started as the Teutonic Order, and then split in 1525 with the creation of the duchy of Prussia into Prussia and the Livonian Order.

I have seen times were they get reduced pretty quickly because they are weaker as seperate nations.

It is also debatable whether or not the Livonian Order would classify as being seperate ?

I also know that the Livonian order would not have been added to the AGCEEP unless there had been discussion on this. Maybe MKJ could share some of this old knowledge about why the Livonian Order should be seperate. For gameplay reasons and MP reasons it seems like they should start as one country.

Links about the Livonian Order:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0830048.html

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Livonian Order

Late,
Jester

 

[unmerged(29774)]

A discussion recently arose regarding the Balic knightly orders. Should we really have the Livonian Order as a seperate country from the Tuetonic Order ?

It would probably help the historical development of the orders and Prussia if they started as the Teutonic Order, and then split in 1525 with the creation of the duchy of Prussia into Prussia and the Livonian Order.

I have seen times were they get reduced pretty quickly because they are weaker as seperate nations.

It is also debatable whether or not the Livonian Order would classify as being seperate ?

I also know that the Livonian order would not have been added to the AGCEEP unless there had been discussion on this. Maybe MKJ could share some of this old knowledge about why the Livonian Order should be seperate. For gameplay reasons and MP reasons it seems like they should start as one country.

Links about the Livonian Order:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0830048.html

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Livonian Order

Late,
Jester

Well from what I've read, it looks legitimate that they should be together until the time comes for them to separate. I vote yes, keep them together until the new duchy is created under Polands suzerainity.

 

[Mad King James]

It was decided to seperate them by the Polish guys in the AGC. It was quite a long discussion actually. It wasn't gameplay concerns but concerns of accuracy. The Livonian Order and Teutonic Order were both under the umbrella of the 'Teutonic Knights', however they were based in Germany. The actual orders themselves had their own grandmasters and operated independently of each other.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46626&page=1&pp=25

 

[Jester]

It was decided to seperate them by the Polish guys in the AGC. It was quite a long discussion actually. It wasn't gameplay concerns but concerns of accuracy. The Livonian Order and Teutonic Order were both under the umbrella of the 'Teutonic Knights', however they were based in Germany. The actual orders themselves had their own grandmasters and operated independently of each other.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46626&page=1&pp=25

I don't really see any good quotes or links in that thread justifying why the LO should be seperate from the TO in 1419. IT doesn't seem like they really considered any gameplay issues either. It seems like the historical benefits of having the LO start independent do not outweigh the negatives that can happen.

I am for having the TO and the LO combined at the start. In 1525 the SEcularization of Prussia event will occur, which causes the TO to turn into Prussia and release the rest of the TO as the LO. Then later the LO will turn into Kurland. BY not splittig up the TO and the LO we should be able to have the TO survive longer , which will hopefully also help with the formation of Prussia.

Late,
Jester

 

[Summoner]

Looking at the first page of the thread, I don't see any reason to keep them seperated either.

 

[Mad King James]

I don't really see any good quotes or links in that thread justifying why the LO should be seperate from the TO in 1419. IT doesn't seem like they really considered any gameplay issues either. It seems like the historical benefits of having the LO start independent do not outweigh the negatives that can happen.

I am for having the TO and the LO combined at the start. In 1525 the SEcularization of Prussia event will occur, which causes the TO to turn into Prussia and release the rest of the TO as the LO. Then later the LO will turn into Kurland. BY not splittig up the TO and the LO we should be able to have the TO survive longer , which will hopefully also help with the formation of Prussia.

Late,
Jester

This however, from past experience, is not the result. A unified TO dies faster, not later, than a non-united one. Playtest it yourself if you don't believe me...

 

[Hive]

A discussion recently arose regarding the Balic knightly orders. Should we really have the Livonian Order as a seperate country from the Tuetonic Order ?

It would probably help the historical development of the orders and Prussia if they started as the Teutonic Order, and then split in 1525 with the creation of the duchy of Prussia into Prussia and the Livonian Order.

I have done exactly that in my mod, as it seemed accurate from the sources I read.

After that Hohenzollern Grandmaster betrayed them and created Prussia, the Teutons moved their "capital" to some German city, while the Livonian Order used the opportunity to regain independence.

EDIT: You might note, btw, that from 1525 onwards in the vanilla Teutonic monarchs file, Livonian Grandmasters are used - not Teutonic grandmasters, even though they actual had one all the way up untill today.

 

[almoravid]

If they are combined, Lithuania takes Livland etc. quite early.

 

[Twoflower]

Livonia should be independent, however the state should be called "Livonian confederation"
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/livonia.html
For those too lazy to read this:
There were three important political powers in Livonia; the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order, the Archbishop of Riga and the free city of Riga. These three formed the Livonian Confederation in the 13th century to secure their rule over their Livonian, Latvian and Estonian subjects and to protect themselves against outside threats. This first was just a loose and fragile alliance, and there were several conflicts between them throughout the 14th century, however after Tannenberg, threatened not only by the Jagello countries, but also by the Kalmar Union, they established the Livonian diet in 1419 that became a sort of central organ in Livonia with legislative authority.
The Livonian Confederation and its diet existed until its defeat at the hands of Ivan the Terrible and the following disintegration.
Since the Teutonic Order, quite differently from the situation in Prussia, controlled at most half of the land (actually they were supposed to have one third while the church should get two thirds, but they took more because they were the ones who were usually doing conquests) and since they had to share central authority with others, it would be quite wrong to give Livonia to the Teutonic Order. The Livonian Confederation should be allied and (probably also) vassalized to the Teutonic Order, though, because it was of course dependent on the military protection of the TO.

 

[unmerged(29774)]

Combine them and perhaps disallow the AI from royal marriages, like the Papal States, therefore they cannot get vassalized unless it'd be from some event. They are an order of Knights after-all. The Knights don't accept Royal Marriages and neither do The Papal States - would this work, would this help? Also give the capital a level 3 fortress like what is done for Venice and Genoa and Byzantine Empire.

 

[cynos]

Hi, I'm playing a Livonian Order AAR at the moment, and so I've been researching this.

Yes, in 1238 the survivors of the Livonian Order petitioned to be admitted into the Teutonic Order.

But... they retained administrative independence in their lands.

From the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

Better known is the history of the Schwertzbrüder (Ensiferi, or Swordbearers) of Livonia, founded by Albert, first Bishop of Riga (1197), to propagate the Faith in the Baltic Provinces and to protect the new Christianity there against the pagan nations still numerous in that part of Europe. Against these pagans a crusade had been preached; but, the temporary crusaders having made haste to withdraw, it became necessary, as in Palestine, to supply their place with a permanent order. This order adopted the statutes, the white mantle and the red cross of the Templars, with a red sword as their distinctive badge, whence their name of Ensiferi. The order was approved in 1202 by a Bull of Innocent III. Thrown open to all sorts of persons without distinction of birth, overrun by aimless adventurers whose excesses were calculated rather to exasperate the pagans than to convert them, it endured but a short time, having only two grand masters, the first of whom, Vinnon, was murdered by one of his fellows in 1209, while the second, Volquin, fell on the field of battle in 1236, with four hundred and eighty knights of the order. The survivors petitioned to be allowed to enter the Teutonic Order, of which the Knights of Livonia thenceforward formed one branch under a provincial master of their own (1238). Their possessions, acquired by conquest, formed a principality under Charles V (1525), and the last of their masters, Gottart Kettler, apostatized and converted it into the hereditary Duchy of Courland under the suzerainty of the kings of Poland (1562).

I would suggest that perhaps the Livonian Order start as vassals of the Teutonic Order.

But, they were certainly independent in a secular sense, and they maintained their own distinct personality

For example:

In 1237 the Livonian and the Teutonic Order formed a federation, in which the Livonian Order was the junior partner. Both organizations remained clearly separated. In 1243, a host of Livonian knights was defeated in the BATTLE ON LAKE PEIPUS by an army from Novgorod commanded by Alexander Nevskiy; the battle marks the end of Livonian expansion.

It's quite interesting if you've ever seen the movie Alexander Nevskiy - the producer portrays these cruel German knights raping and pillaging the helpless Russians - that's the Livonians...

In terms of game balance in GC, my experience is this:

Teutonic Order immediately declares war on Poland (Feb 1419), who bring in their MA partners Massovia + Lithuania. (Lithuania is MA leader??)

Poland, Lithuania and Massovia proceed to hammer the TO.

If the LO honours their MA, they share in the hammering.
If they dishonour it, Russia attacks within 5-10 years, and then the Lithuanians attack (and bring alliance partners) and the LO gets hammered anyway.

To actually survive until 1430 I had to join the MA with Po/Li/Ma, which led to me declaring war upon the TO - not very historic, but luckily I had a major plot device to use in my AAR...

Although I do like that Poland is very very intent on getting Danzig, as when my LO had occupied all of the TO, Poland negotiated a peace that gave me Memel, but not Danzig. (Treacherous swine! )

But yeah, vassalage for the LO (to signify the independent provincial branch) with the MA. That way, to declare war on the TO, the LO would have to break vassalage and break MA, which would massively kick stab, which would be appropriate for such a gross betrayal.

 

[Khephren]

I would suggest that perhaps the Livonian Order start as vassals of the Teutonic Order.

If we do keep LO ( which I think we should - although Livonian confederation sounds reasonable aswell ), this should definitely be implemented.

 

[Mad King James]

Not sure why people are so eager to merge them, that would be less accurate than what we have now.

 

[cynos]

Not sure why people are so eager to merge them, that would be less accurate than what we have now.

Technically, they were part of the Teutonic Order after 1238...

So I suppose it depends on how much you consider them to be a part of that order.

Perhaps the TO with an additional three provinces and another CoT is easier to play?

As I said, I propose:

Livonian Order vassal of TO, in MA with TO as alliance leader, +200 relations.

 

[Archaalen]

I know this is a bit OT, but I think it'd be a cool event for, if the TO does get wiped out in the Baltic and its still pre-Reformation, Hungary could have the option of giving Siebenburgen back to them, sorta similar to Spain giving Malta to the Hospitallers. Seeing a TO in the Balkans would be really cool.

 

[Sute]{h]

I know this is a bit OT, but I think it'd be a cool event for, if the TO does get wiped out in the Baltic and its still pre-Reformation, Hungary could have the option of giving Siebenburgen back to them, sorta similar to Spain giving Malta to the Hospitallers. Seeing a TO in the Balkans would be really cool.

Ahistorical but cool... could be quite a good fantasy event, however IIRC Hungary wasn't very happy with the Teutons, but with enough pressure from Austria and the pope it might have happened. My only consideration is that the TO seems to get annexed and destroyed in almost every game that I play. Like far to many german minors...

 

[unmerged(13581)]

Not sure why people are so eager to merge them, that would be less accurate than what we have now.

It might be more accurate but the point is TO and LO just can't stand Poland, Lithaunia and Muscovy/Russia. Now I played a lot of games and with the AGC-EEP and I only saw Prussia forming in one single game. In my opinon historical accuracy is very important, but as stated, something has to be done to improve TOs chances to survive the early game.

 

[cynos]

9 times out of 10, the TO declares war on Poland immediately. Like, Feb 1419.
Drags in Livonian Order - Livonian Order loses Livland, declares war on Lithuania, war flares again...

Stop the To DoWing so damn early. It's like a matter of policy for them.

"To do this game:

Start a war we can't win
Start a war we can't win
Start a war we can't win
Start a war we can't win"

Also, if the TO were invited there by the Duke of Massovia - why is Massovia in alliance with Poland and Lithuania?

 

[almoravid]

This problem is quite solved now, I think, as now both orders are *damn strong*. I've seen Teutonics take out not only masovia, but conquer Posen and Wielkopolska. Kostrin gets sold only in a few cases, and Poland doesn't kick the order strong enough, so they often keep holding Danzig. The Livonian Order too takes both Narva and Olonets and thus stretches to the white sea, which would be far beyond their strengh and manpower historically. I think we have to find a way to weaken them, so that they get gobbled up by Poland and Russia often.

Another issue would be the conversion events which make them protestant Courland/Prussia. Wouldn't it be better to shift the knights to Courland/Prussia immediately after they convert on their own? If they remained catholic, they'd still be the orders, after all.

 

[unmerged(13581)]

This problem is quite solved now, I think, as now both orders are *damn strong*. I've seen Teutonics take out not only masovia, but conquer Posen and Wielkopolska. Kostrin gets sold only in a few cases, and Poland doesn't kick the order strong enough, so they often keep holding Danzig. The Livonian Order too takes both Narva and Olonets and thus stretches to the white sea, which would be far beyond their strengh and manpower historically. I think we have to find a way to weaken them, so that they get gobbled up by Poland and Russia often.

I'm sorry but I can't second that. Played three hands-on games with the current patch. In my first game as Venetia both LO and TO got annexed by Poland after 2 fast wars. In the second game with Portugal they managed to take on Masovia but LO got beaten very bad by Lithaunia while TO somewhat survived until 1487 where I stopped the game because of a silly random event chain that left me with no serious save game to reload. In my actual game with Milan/KoI LO got knocked out of the game as early as 1430, but TO managed to survive so far (1490). Still they have only 2 provinces left and are in no position to win another war against Poland/Muscovy/Sweden&Denmark or Brandenburg.