• Crusader Kings II Expansion Subscription

    Subscribe to the CK II Expansion and enjoy unlimited access to 13 major expansions and more!


  • Paradox Space Exploration Sale has arrived! Up to 75% off

    How's the space on your hard drive? Paradox wants to challenge your galaxy brain with a great selection of space exploration games - and they're all on sale for some very down-to-earth prices! The sale runs from May 4th until May 10th at 17:00 CEST / 08:00 PDT.


    May 4th - May 10th
  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Jester

El Jeffe De La Verca Del Fuego
64 Badges
Feb 26, 2001
1.165
0
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
A discussion recently arose regarding the Balic knightly orders. Should we really have the Livonian Order as a seperate country from the Tuetonic Order ?

It would probably help the historical development of the orders and Prussia if they started as the Teutonic Order, and then split in 1525 with the creation of the duchy of Prussia into Prussia and the Livonian Order.

I have seen times were they get reduced pretty quickly because they are weaker as seperate nations.

It is also debatable whether or not the Livonian Order would classify as being seperate ?

I also know that the Livonian order would not have been added to the AGCEEP unless there had been discussion on this. Maybe MKJ could share some of this old knowledge about why the Livonian Order should be seperate. For gameplay reasons and MP reasons it seems like they should start as one country.

Links about the Livonian Order:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0830048.html

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Livonian Order

Late,
Jester
 

unmerged(29774)

Sergeant
May 28, 2004
95
0
Jester said:
A discussion recently arose regarding the Balic knightly orders. Should we really have the Livonian Order as a seperate country from the Tuetonic Order ?

It would probably help the historical development of the orders and Prussia if they started as the Teutonic Order, and then split in 1525 with the creation of the duchy of Prussia into Prussia and the Livonian Order.

I have seen times were they get reduced pretty quickly because they are weaker as seperate nations.

It is also debatable whether or not the Livonian Order would classify as being seperate ?

I also know that the Livonian order would not have been added to the AGCEEP unless there had been discussion on this. Maybe MKJ could share some of this old knowledge about why the Livonian Order should be seperate. For gameplay reasons and MP reasons it seems like they should start as one country.

Links about the Livonian Order:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0830048.html

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Livonian Order

Late,
Jester


Well from what I've read, it looks legitimate that they should be together until the time comes for them to separate. I vote yes, keep them together until the new duchy is created under Polands suzerainity.
 

Mad King James

Buzzkill Extraordinaire
61 Badges
Jan 18, 2002
7.148
300
40
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
It was decided to seperate them by the Polish guys in the AGC. It was quite a long discussion actually. It wasn't gameplay concerns but concerns of accuracy. The Livonian Order and Teutonic Order were both under the umbrella of the 'Teutonic Knights', however they were based in Germany. The actual orders themselves had their own grandmasters and operated independently of each other.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46626&page=1&pp=25
 

Jester

El Jeffe De La Verca Del Fuego
64 Badges
Feb 26, 2001
1.165
0
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Mad King James said:
It was decided to seperate them by the Polish guys in the AGC. It was quite a long discussion actually. It wasn't gameplay concerns but concerns of accuracy. The Livonian Order and Teutonic Order were both under the umbrella of the 'Teutonic Knights', however they were based in Germany. The actual orders themselves had their own grandmasters and operated independently of each other.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46626&page=1&pp=25

I don't really see any good quotes or links in that thread justifying why the LO should be seperate from the TO in 1419. IT doesn't seem like they really considered any gameplay issues either. It seems like the historical benefits of having the LO start independent do not outweigh the negatives that can happen.

I am for having the TO and the LO combined at the start. In 1525 the SEcularization of Prussia event will occur, which causes the TO to turn into Prussia and release the rest of the TO as the LO. Then later the LO will turn into Kurland. BY not splittig up the TO and the LO we should be able to have the TO survive longer , which will hopefully also help with the formation of Prussia.

Late,
Jester
 

Mad King James

Buzzkill Extraordinaire
61 Badges
Jan 18, 2002
7.148
300
40
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
Jester said:
I don't really see any good quotes or links in that thread justifying why the LO should be seperate from the TO in 1419. IT doesn't seem like they really considered any gameplay issues either. It seems like the historical benefits of having the LO start independent do not outweigh the negatives that can happen.

I am for having the TO and the LO combined at the start. In 1525 the SEcularization of Prussia event will occur, which causes the TO to turn into Prussia and release the rest of the TO as the LO. Then later the LO will turn into Kurland. BY not splittig up the TO and the LO we should be able to have the TO survive longer , which will hopefully also help with the formation of Prussia.

Late,
Jester

This however, from past experience, is not the result. A unified TO dies faster, not later, than a non-united one. Playtest it yourself if you don't believe me...
 

Hive

Lex Superior
19 Badges
Oct 16, 2002
12.250
15
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
Jester said:
A discussion recently arose regarding the Balic knightly orders. Should we really have the Livonian Order as a seperate country from the Tuetonic Order ?

It would probably help the historical development of the orders and Prussia if they started as the Teutonic Order, and then split in 1525 with the creation of the duchy of Prussia into Prussia and the Livonian Order.

I have done exactly that in my mod, as it seemed accurate from the sources I read.

After that Hohenzollern Grandmaster betrayed them and created Prussia, the Teutons moved their "capital" to some German city, while the Livonian Order used the opportunity to regain independence.

EDIT: You might note, btw, that from 1525 onwards in the vanilla Teutonic monarchs file, Livonian Grandmasters are used - not Teutonic grandmasters, even though they actual had one all the way up untill today.
 

almoravid

I ignore U
51 Badges
Sep 8, 2003
1.271
125
Visit site
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For The Glory
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
If they are combined, Lithuania takes Livland etc. quite early.
 

Twoflower

Vile treacherous Judas
83 Badges
Nov 7, 2001
3.900
2.120
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For The Glory
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
Livonia should be independent, however the state should be called "Livonian confederation"
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/livonia.html
For those too lazy to read this:
There were three important political powers in Livonia; the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order, the Archbishop of Riga and the free city of Riga. These three formed the Livonian Confederation in the 13th century to secure their rule over their Livonian, Latvian and Estonian subjects and to protect themselves against outside threats. This first was just a loose and fragile alliance, and there were several conflicts between them throughout the 14th century, however after Tannenberg, threatened not only by the Jagello countries, but also by the Kalmar Union, they established the Livonian diet in 1419 that became a sort of central organ in Livonia with legislative authority.
The Livonian Confederation and its diet existed until its defeat at the hands of Ivan the Terrible and the following disintegration.
Since the Teutonic Order, quite differently from the situation in Prussia, controlled at most half of the land (actually they were supposed to have one third while the church should get two thirds, but they took more because they were the ones who were usually doing conquests) and since they had to share central authority with others, it would be quite wrong to give Livonia to the Teutonic Order. The Livonian Confederation should be allied and (probably also) vassalized to the Teutonic Order, though, because it was of course dependent on the military protection of the TO.
 

unmerged(29774)

Sergeant
May 28, 2004
95
0
Combine them and perhaps disallow the AI from royal marriages, like the Papal States, therefore they cannot get vassalized unless it'd be from some event. They are an order of Knights after-all. The Knights don't accept Royal Marriages and neither do The Papal States - would this work, would this help? Also give the capital a level 3 fortress like what is done for Venice and Genoa and Byzantine Empire.
 

cynos

Second Lieutenant
5 Badges
Jun 22, 2004
110
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
Hi, I'm playing a Livonian Order AAR at the moment, and so I've been researching this.

Yes, in 1238 the survivors of the Livonian Order petitioned to be admitted into the Teutonic Order.

But... they retained administrative independence in their lands.

From the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

Better known is the history of the Schwertzbrüder (Ensiferi, or Swordbearers) of Livonia, founded by Albert, first Bishop of Riga (1197), to propagate the Faith in the Baltic Provinces and to protect the new Christianity there against the pagan nations still numerous in that part of Europe. Against these pagans a crusade had been preached; but, the temporary crusaders having made haste to withdraw, it became necessary, as in Palestine, to supply their place with a permanent order. This order adopted the statutes, the white mantle and the red cross of the Templars, with a red sword as their distinctive badge, whence their name of Ensiferi. The order was approved in 1202 by a Bull of Innocent III. Thrown open to all sorts of persons without distinction of birth, overrun by aimless adventurers whose excesses were calculated rather to exasperate the pagans than to convert them, it endured but a short time, having only two grand masters, the first of whom, Vinnon, was murdered by one of his fellows in 1209, while the second, Volquin, fell on the field of battle in 1236, with four hundred and eighty knights of the order. The survivors petitioned to be allowed to enter the Teutonic Order, of which the Knights of Livonia thenceforward formed one branch under a provincial master of their own (1238). Their possessions, acquired by conquest, formed a principality under Charles V (1525), and the last of their masters, Gottart Kettler, apostatized and converted it into the hereditary Duchy of Courland under the suzerainty of the kings of Poland (1562).

I would suggest that perhaps the Livonian Order start as vassals of the Teutonic Order.

But, they were certainly independent in a secular sense, and they maintained their own distinct personality

For example:
In 1237 the Livonian and the Teutonic Order formed a federation, in which the Livonian Order was the junior partner. Both organizations remained clearly separated. In 1243, a host of Livonian knights was defeated in the BATTLE ON LAKE PEIPUS by an army from Novgorod commanded by Alexander Nevskiy; the battle marks the end of Livonian expansion.

It's quite interesting if you've ever seen the movie Alexander Nevskiy - the producer portrays these cruel German knights raping and pillaging the helpless Russians - that's the Livonians...

In terms of game balance in GC, my experience is this:

Teutonic Order immediately declares war on Poland (Feb 1419), who bring in their MA partners Massovia + Lithuania. (Lithuania is MA leader??)

Poland, Lithuania and Massovia proceed to hammer the TO.

If the LO honours their MA, they share in the hammering.
If they dishonour it, Russia attacks within 5-10 years, and then the Lithuanians attack (and bring alliance partners) and the LO gets hammered anyway.

To actually survive until 1430 I had to join the MA with Po/Li/Ma, which led to me declaring war upon the TO - not very historic, but luckily I had a major plot device to use in my AAR...

Although I do like that Poland is very very intent on getting Danzig, as when my LO had occupied all of the TO, Poland negotiated a peace that gave me Memel, but not Danzig. (Treacherous swine! :D )

But yeah, vassalage for the LO (to signify the independent provincial branch) with the MA. That way, to declare war on the TO, the LO would have to break vassalage and break MA, which would massively kick stab, which would be appropriate for such a gross betrayal.
 

Khephren

Watery Tart
22 Badges
Mar 29, 2003
1.285
2
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Iron Cross
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Arsenal of Democracy
cynos said:
I would suggest that perhaps the Livonian Order start as vassals of the Teutonic Order.

If we do keep LO ( which I think we should - although Livonian confederation sounds reasonable aswell ), this should definitely be implemented.
 

Mad King James

Buzzkill Extraordinaire
61 Badges
Jan 18, 2002
7.148
300
40
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
Not sure why people are so eager to merge them, that would be less accurate than what we have now.
 

cynos

Second Lieutenant
5 Badges
Jun 22, 2004
110
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
Mad King James said:
Not sure why people are so eager to merge them, that would be less accurate than what we have now.

Technically, they were part of the Teutonic Order after 1238...

So I suppose it depends on how much you consider them to be a part of that order.

Perhaps the TO with an additional three provinces and another CoT is easier to play?

As I said, I propose:

Livonian Order vassal of TO, in MA with TO as alliance leader, +200 relations.
 

Archaalen

Colonel
37 Badges
Mar 19, 2003
1.135
0
Visit site
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Sengoku
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Ancient Space
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
I know this is a bit OT, but I think it'd be a cool event for, if the TO does get wiped out in the Baltic and its still pre-Reformation, Hungary could have the option of giving Siebenburgen back to them, sorta similar to Spain giving Malta to the Hospitallers. Seeing a TO in the Balkans would be really cool.
 

Sute]{h

Field Marshal
86 Badges
Jun 25, 2002
3.481
176
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
Archaalen said:
I know this is a bit OT, but I think it'd be a cool event for, if the TO does get wiped out in the Baltic and its still pre-Reformation, Hungary could have the option of giving Siebenburgen back to them, sorta similar to Spain giving Malta to the Hospitallers. Seeing a TO in the Balkans would be really cool.
Ahistorical but cool... could be quite a good fantasy event, however IIRC Hungary wasn't very happy with the Teutons, but with enough pressure from Austria and the pope it might have happened. My only consideration is that the TO seems to get annexed and destroyed in almost every game that I play. Like far to many german minors... ;)
 

unmerged(13581)

Second Lieutenant
Jan 7, 2003
152
0
Visit site
Mad King James said:
Not sure why people are so eager to merge them, that would be less accurate than what we have now.

It might be more accurate but the point is TO and LO just can't stand Poland, Lithaunia and Muscovy/Russia. Now I played a lot of games and with the AGC-EEP and I only saw Prussia forming in one single game. In my opinon historical accuracy is very important, but as stated, something has to be done to improve TOs chances to survive the early game.
 

cynos

Second Lieutenant
5 Badges
Jun 22, 2004
110
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
9 times out of 10, the TO declares war on Poland immediately. Like, Feb 1419.
Drags in Livonian Order - Livonian Order loses Livland, declares war on Lithuania, war flares again...

Stop the To DoWing so damn early. It's like a matter of policy for them.

"To do this game:

Start a war we can't win
Start a war we can't win
Start a war we can't win
Start a war we can't win"

Also, if the TO were invited there by the Duke of Massovia - why is Massovia in alliance with Poland and Lithuania?
 

almoravid

I ignore U
51 Badges
Sep 8, 2003
1.271
125
Visit site
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For The Glory
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
This problem is quite solved now, I think, as now both orders are *damn strong*. I've seen Teutonics take out not only masovia, but conquer Posen and Wielkopolska. Kostrin gets sold only in a few cases, and Poland doesn't kick the order strong enough, so they often keep holding Danzig. The Livonian Order too takes both Narva and Olonets and thus stretches to the white sea, which would be far beyond their strengh and manpower historically. I think we have to find a way to weaken them, so that they get gobbled up by Poland and Russia often.

Another issue would be the conversion events which make them protestant Courland/Prussia. Wouldn't it be better to shift the knights to Courland/Prussia immediately after they convert on their own? If they remained catholic, they'd still be the orders, after all.
 

unmerged(13581)

Second Lieutenant
Jan 7, 2003
152
0
Visit site
almoravid said:
This problem is quite solved now, I think, as now both orders are *damn strong*. I've seen Teutonics take out not only masovia, but conquer Posen and Wielkopolska. Kostrin gets sold only in a few cases, and Poland doesn't kick the order strong enough, so they often keep holding Danzig. The Livonian Order too takes both Narva and Olonets and thus stretches to the white sea, which would be far beyond their strengh and manpower historically. I think we have to find a way to weaken them, so that they get gobbled up by Poland and Russia often.

I'm sorry but I can't second that. Played three hands-on games with the current patch. In my first game as Venetia both LO and TO got annexed by Poland after 2 fast wars. In the second game with Portugal they managed to take on Masovia but LO got beaten very bad by Lithaunia while TO somewhat survived until 1487 where I stopped the game because of a silly random event chain that left me with no serious save game to reload. In my actual game with Milan/KoI LO got knocked out of the game as early as 1430, but TO managed to survive so far (1490). Still they have only 2 provinces left and are in no position to win another war against Poland/Muscovy/Sweden&Denmark or Brandenburg.