Teutonic Map and General Baltic/Livonia Discussion

[Sanguine Caesar]

First off, I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the Suggestions Forum, so any of the mods in charge of that can move this to wherever they feel it belongs

Anyway, I found this rather interesting map of the Teutonic Order and the surrounding Baltic states in 1410, and aside from the usual crop of minor nations advocated for by other forumites (i.e Dorpat, Oesel-Wiek, Kurland, etc.), I stumbled on an interesting little tidbit...

Spoiler: Image

...there appears to also have been a rather sizeable (and actually of large enough scale to fit in-game) Prince-Bishopric of Warmia (or "Ermland" in German) which I have never seen mentioned before on this forum or included in any mods reworking the region. After skimming through the Wikipedia article, the Prince-Bishopric was apparently a kind of vassal-state of the Teutonic Order before being annexed by Poland towards the end of the 15th Century. Looking over on Wappenwiki (different site, and actually a very useful source for historical coats of arms based off of old armorials) I was able to find its historical coat of arms as shown here:

Spoiler: Image

Such an angry-looking lamb

So aside from getting me to look up obscure facts about an OPM in Ducal Prussia, this delve into bit of a rabbit hole got me thinking: what kinds of suggestions are out there for the Baltic states (the Teutons and Livonians in particular)? Are there any other details like this that can be added to the region to make it more historically accurate and immersive? Does anyone know a better source for me to learn more about this Prince-Bishopric and fall further down this rabbit hole? I'm interested in your thoughts on what can be done in the Baltic/Livonian region (though keep in mind I have not studied this region in-depth so I don't know what I might be able to contribute)

 

[spalius]

Well, to start - removing the Teutonic and Livonian border and adding the Palanga city as a province. I believe it was an important city and port, and was the reason for many wars between GDL and Teutons. Though, this issue has been in the game for so long that, well, it's unlikely it will be fixed.

This map is slightly outdated but it shows a map that Paradox could use to overhaul the region. It's clear that the borders would be strange, so they should instead change the borders to something like this:

[/IMG]
I tried to simplify the borders but yeah. Anyways, moving on - Lithuania. Lithuanian provinces have been edited three times, but mostly in the 1.27 patch. It's lacking though, and as previously said - Palanga should be the province between Livonia and Prussia. Speaking of Prussia, the Teutonic Order should have core provinces in some parts of Samogitia as I believe they owned it for a brief time.

I think a good choice would be to remove the formation of Courland (doesn't make sense) and instead allow them to reform into Livonia or Latvia. AKA Secularize. Upon doing this, IMO they should get normal Latvian names (goes for all of these Latvian nations).

Let's move onto Prussia.

Prussian culture shouldn't be in the German culture Group. Not yet atleast. They were Balts and only dissapeared in the XVIII century. Teutonic Order should have primary culture of German but making most provinces Old Prussian (or just Prussian) which belongs to the Baltic culture Group. Teutonic Order should be given two options - To secularize into Old Prussia or the German Prussia. Old Prussia gives the culture and names.

Estonia and Finland are also not really paid attention to. Estonia should belong to a Finno-Ugric Culture Group along with Finland, but it would be a nerf to the Baltic cultures, so I'm not really sure.

 

[Battlex]

Suggestions would probably be better place, but how have you not seen Warmia in MEIOU? There's another vassal bisphoric teutonics have in that mod in IIRC. Events to help simulate the wars over Livonia would be helpful, as well as Courland being releasable via event, much like japanese daiymo, provided the provinces were protestant for example. As posted above having the Livonian confederation represented would be fun, as well as Riga being added to the HRE via event, as it was a Free City once along with Danzig, even if that would hamper Austria even more.

 

[gigau]

to the Suggestions subforum.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Prussian culture shouldn't be in the German culture Group. Not yet atleast. They were Balts and only dissapeared in the XVIII century. Teutonic Order should have primary culture of German but making most provinces Old Prussian (or just Prussian) which belongs to the Baltic culture Group. Teutonic Order should be given two options - To secularize into Old Prussia or the German Prussia. Old Prussia gives the culture and names.

Would there be any better terms to help in distinguishing German Prussians from Old Prussians? The only reason being because it might get confusing for some to have two cultures with the word "Prussian" in the name. Otherwise, I think this is a perfectly valid suggestion!

Also, I can't seem to see the map you posted for use in-game

but how have you not seen Warmia in MEIOU?

Well I have never actually played MEIOU (there is no way my system could run it) so that's how

Events to help simulate the wars over Livonia would be helpful, as well as Courland being releasable via event, much like japanese daiymo, provided the provinces were protestant for example. As posted above having the Livonian confederation represented would be fun, as well as Riga being added to the HRE via event, as it was a Free City once along with Danzig, even if that would hamper Austria even more.

Very much agreed!

 

[spalius]

Would there be any better terms to help in distinguishing German Prussians from Old Prussians? The only reason being because it might get confusing for some to have two cultures with the word "Prussian" in the name. Otherwise, I think this is a perfectly valid suggestion!

Well, I don't think there is another term other than that. Baltic Prussian could work aswell.

 

[DDRJake]

While I quite like the historical divisions of land around Latvia, it's a level of bordergore and disjointed land that we're unlikely to put into the game.

 

[grommile]

I think a good choice would be to remove the formation of Courland (doesn't make sense)

When the Livonian Order was dismantled, the last Grand Master - in very similar fashion to the Grand Master of the Teutonic Order - became the Duke of the secular Duchy of Courland and Semigallia, a state which existed as more or less what EU4 would call a vassal of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

So while you're free to say it doesn't make sense, history is not really on your side...

 

[spalius]

When the Livonian Order was dismantled, the last Grand Master - in very similar fashion to the Grand Master of the Teutonic Order - became the Duke of the secular Duchy of Courland and Semigallia, a state which existed as more or less what EU4 would call a vassal of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

So while you're free to say it doesn't make sense, history is not really on your side...

It's historical, but thing is - Why would the Livonian Order/Riga (who are probably gonna be bigger than just Courland) rename themselves to a smaller nation than they were, so something bigger than they are right now would be more prestigiuos, don't you think?

 

[gigau]

While I quite like the historical divisions of land around Latvia, it's a level of bordergore and disjointed land that we're unlikely to put into the game.

While i understand the reasoning, ihave to disagree... sorry, my friend... i hope you understand as well...

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

While I quite like the historical divisions of land around Latvia, it's a level of bordergore and disjointed land that we're unlikely to put into the game.

While i understand the reasoning, ihave to disagree... sorry, my friend... i hope you understand as well...

Perhaps some kind of middle ground can be found between historical accuracy and not having atrocious border gore?

 

[mathuser]

Well, to start - removing the Teutonic and Livonian border and adding the Palanga city as a province. I believe it was an important city and port, and was the reason for many wars between GDL and Teutons. Though, this issue has been in the game for so long that, well, it's unlikely it will be fixed.

This map is slightly outdated but it shows a map that Paradox could use to overhaul the region. It's clear that the borders would be strange, so they should instead change the borders to something like this:

[/IMG]
I tried to simplify the borders but yeah. Anyways, moving on - Lithuania. Lithuanian provinces have been edited three times, but mostly in the 1.27 patch. It's lacking though, and as previously said - Palanga should be the province between Livonia and Prussia. Speaking of Prussia, the Teutonic Order should have core provinces in some parts of Samogitia as I believe they owned it for a brief time.

I think a good choice would be to remove the formation of Courland (doesn't make sense) and instead allow them to reform into Livonia or Latvia. AKA Secularize. Upon doing this, IMO they should get normal Latvian names (goes for all of these Latvian nations).

Let's move onto Prussia.

Prussian culture shouldn't be in the German culture Group. Not yet atleast. They were Balts and only dissapeared in the XVIII century. Teutonic Order should have primary culture of German but making most provinces Old Prussian (or just Prussian) which belongs to the Baltic culture Group. Teutonic Order should be given two options - To secularize into Old Prussia or the German Prussia. Old Prussia gives the culture and names.

Estonia and Finland are also not really paid attention to. Estonia should belong to a Finno-Ugric Culture Group along with Finland, but it would be a nerf to the Baltic cultures, so I'm not really sure.

Here's a simple suggestion:



Wiek (Laanemaa and Hiumaa) and Selonia are optional, while Pernau and Fellin should be a separate province.

The current Livland province is Latvian culture, but the capital is in Fellin, which is Estonian along with the rest of the northern part of the province. The Estonian port of Pernau is an important ice-free harbor and is even a dynamic province name for Livland. The Estonian part was administered separately from the Latvian part, whose major town is Valmiera, one of the sites for the landtags.

Here's a map to see divisions of Livonia under Swedish rule:

Spoiler: good old Swedish times (vana hea Rootsi aeg)

Maps of Terra Mariana and Livonia under Russian rule also show the separation between the northern and southern parts of this province:

Livonia in 1534
Governorate of Livonia 1820

The cultural and administrative borders should separate such a block-shaped province.

In addition, here are some other maps of Livonia under Russian rule:

Spoiler: Baltic Governorates

Governorate of Estonia 1820
Governorate of Courland 1820
Baltic Governorates 1721-1918

Edit:
Seeing the thread again, the setup for the states would be something like this:

Estonia: Osel, Wiek, Reval, Narva
Livonia: Pernau/Fellin, Dorpat, Valmiera
Wenden: Riga, Wenden, Latgale
Curonia: Goldingen, Mitau, Selonia

These follow from looking at the maps during each period of rule.

 

[Aramenian]

it's not better to increase the number of provinces by two more

1: Piltene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltene
2: Hiiumaa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiiumaa
As to the division of islands is possible just as they did with the Balearic Islands

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Here's a simple suggestion:

View attachment 429957

Wiek (Laanemaa and Hiumaa) and Selonia are optional, while Pernau and Fellin should be a separate province.

The current Livland province is Latvian culture, but the capital is in Fellin, which is Estonian along with the rest of the northern part of the province. The Estonian port of Pernau is an important ice-free harbor and is even a dynamic province name for Livland. The Estonian part was administered separately from the Latvian part, whose major town is Valmeria, one of the sites for the landtags.

Here's a map to see divisions of Livonia under Swedish rule:

Spoiler: good old Swedish times (vana hea Rootsi aeg)

Maps of Terra Mariana and Livonia under Russian rule also show the separation between the northern and southern parts of this province:

Livonia in 1534
Governorate of Livonia 1820

The cultural and administrative borders should separate such a block-shaped province.

In addition, here are some other maps of Livonia under Russian rule:

Spoiler: Baltic Governorates

Governorate of Estonia 1820
Governorate of Courland 1820
Baltic Governorates 1721-1918

I like this proposal. I tend to be rather conservative when it comes to adding new provinces, and it seems like this is a fair amount without going overboard

 

[AirikrStrife]

I'm personally againt fracturing the Livonian order, and see very little gameplay value in having Livonia start with 3-4 vassals.

Especially when the areas in question are so small

Currently I only wish for two new provinces in Livonia, Wiek and Selburg,

and the reasons I want Selburg is to get more accurate borders of Curonia and a proper Curonia area.

 

[mathuser]

it's not better to increase the number of provinces by two more

View attachment 430131
1: Piltene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltene
2: Hiiumaa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiiumaa
As to the division of islands is possible just as they did with the Balearic Islands

The highlighted ones are the top three historical areas that should be considered, but a fourth province would be Piltene and the Bishopric of Courland. I didn't consider Dago (Hiumaa) as a separate province since it was governed from Hapsal as part of Wiek, and Estonia has been a low priority region in Europe along with the Balkans, so it may not get the same attention as other regions.

Estonia has essentially remained the same since the beginning of EU4, with its unusual L-shaped borders, while Latvia gained Wenden last year in the Mare Nostrum patch. Adding a Pernau/Fellin province would correct Estonia's borders as well as Latvia's, leading to a proper representation of the cultural and administrative borders of the region.

Wiek and Selonia are next because they are historical areas that would would reduce the bulky Reval and Mitau provinces while giving better representation for the region. Wiek was the main territory of the Bishopric of Osel-Wiek,and Selonia is a cultural region, often considered part of eastern Semigallia, that originates from a separate Baltic tribe.

I'm personally againt fracturing the Livonian order, and see very little gameplay value in having Livonia start with 3-4 vassals.

Especially when the areas in question are so small

Currently I only wish for two new provinces in Livonia, Wiek and Selburg,

and the reasons I want Selburg is to get more accurate borders of Curonia and a proper Curonia area.

Hopefully, a proper confederation mechanic will one day exist for tags like Terra Mariana and the Old Swiss Confederacy.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Hopefully, a proper confederation mechanic will one day exist for tags like Terra Mariana and the Old Swiss Confederacy.

I'm actually not particularly interested in splitting up countries like the livonian order and switzerland even with more advanced mechanics. Look at Japan, it works because japan is large, it's a classical era, but it takes about 25 years to unite japan.

I want an overhaul of switzerland, which I have proposed using factions instead of estate, and if some mechanics be used to better represent the swiss confederacy that could be cool, but I'm not particularly keen on making more tags out of the swiss confederacy.

If there were countries I would want to balkanize more (like Japan, or the timurids) it is france, bring back the french vassals but with added mechanics making it possible to claim the throne etc.

I would welcome a further development of the mechanics introduced in the game since release which has been created to better represent internal politics and the less than homogenous and central power structure which existed in release version - autonomy, estates, states/territories and how they can interact with goverment reforms. A dlc focusing on bringing all this together into a more advanced and intricate mechanic would be awesome.

 

[grommile]

If there were countries I would want to balkanize more (like Japan, or the timurids) it is france, bring back the french vassals but with added mechanics making it possible to claim the throne etc.

From 987 to 1791, the only person to be crowned King of France without being the heir to the senior surviving legitimate male line of the House of Capet was Henry VI of England, who was effectively an antiking, since Charles VII had been crowned in Reims two years previously.

 

[AirikrStrife]

From 987 to 1791, the only person to be crowned King of France without being the heir to the senior surviving legitimate male line of the House of Capet was Henry VI of England, who was effectively an antiking, since Charles VII had been crowned in Reims two years previously.

True, though there were still some interesting times of dynastic civil war in france. War of Public weal, the whole history of the duchy of burgundy striving to become an independent kingdom rather than a subject to the king of france. The french wars of religion which eventually saw the rise of the bourbon dynasty.

 

[Aquamancer]

Prussian culture shouldn't be in the German culture Group. Not yet atleast. They were Balts and only dissapeared in the XVIII century. Teutonic Order should have primary culture of German but making most provinces Old Prussian (or just Prussian) which belongs to the Baltic culture Group. Teutonic Order should be given two options - To secularize into Old Prussia or the German Prussia. Old Prussia gives the culture and names.

Would there be any better terms to help in distinguishing German Prussians from Old Prussians? The only reason being because it might get confusing for some to have two cultures with the word "Prussian" in the name. Otherwise, I think this is a perfectly valid suggestion!

Well, I don't think there is another term other than that. Baltic Prussian could work aswell.

Old Prussian culture used to be in the earlier versions of EU4 until Patch 1.12, although it wasn't even present in Prussia itself, but in Curonia, and had Kurland as its primary nation. I suppose it was meant to represent the Curonians, and was removed because it was not presented historically accurately in any way, shape or form. That said, the Baltic Prussian culture is actually still included in the game under another name: Pruthenian, in the Lost Cultures culture group.

In addition, there is actually an older thread which covers the potential reimplementation of the Old Prussian culture very well, so I'll just leave a link to it here, as practically all of it could be applied here.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/diversifying-prussia.915788/