Teutonic Map and General Baltic/Livonia Discussion

[Sanguine Caesar]

First off, I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the Suggestions Forum, so any of the mods in charge of that can move this to wherever they feel it belongs

Anyway, I found this rather interesting map of the Teutonic Order and the surrounding Baltic states in 1410, and aside from the usual crop of minor nations advocated for by other forumites (i.e Dorpat, Oesel-Wiek, Kurland, etc.), I stumbled on an interesting little tidbit...

Spoiler: Image

...there appears to also have been a rather sizeable (and actually of large enough scale to fit in-game) Prince-Bishopric of Warmia (or "Ermland" in German) which I have never seen mentioned before on this forum or included in any mods reworking the region. After skimming through the Wikipedia article, the Prince-Bishopric was apparently a kind of vassal-state of the Teutonic Order before being annexed by Poland towards the end of the 15th Century. Looking over on Wappenwiki (different site, and actually a very useful source for historical coats of arms based off of old armorials) I was able to find its historical coat of arms as shown here:

Spoiler: Image

Such an angry-looking lamb

So aside from getting me to look up obscure facts about an OPM in Ducal Prussia, this delve into bit of a rabbit hole got me thinking: what kinds of suggestions are out there for the Baltic states (the Teutons and Livonians in particular)? Are there any other details like this that can be added to the region to make it more historically accurate and immersive? Does anyone know a better source for me to learn more about this Prince-Bishopric and fall further down this rabbit hole? I'm interested in your thoughts on what can be done in the Baltic/Livonian region (though keep in mind I have not studied this region in-depth so I don't know what I might be able to contribute)

 

[Entrone]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-provinces-to-northern-europe.1145572/

There's my suggestion on this region's map (also). Feel free to add your toughts

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

Though i dont have any corresponding images, i think the Bishopric of Warmia would be good to break up the immediate brick-wall that standing on the border of Prussian Memel, with the Livonian Order immediately north-east, and the gigantic entities that are Poland and Lithuania 180% clockwise surrounding you from posing a enormous challenge. If as the Teutons you manage to secure your future protection (joining the empire/& gaining allies) from them two, you are immediately punished by a choice of Livonia's allies not least resricted to Muscovy, Norway, Sweden or just Lithuania & Poland etc, if you're lucky just Riga.

It would make sense to undercut the borders of Livonia and Lithuania, so that you could pass through Warmia's held provices rather than overhead clutching the coast towards Novgorod & Finland, given at the moment my strategy mainly composes of attempting land-grabs over the water through Gotland's vassal coring range (naval landing right atop of Riga to grab Prussian clay, and Finland for a strong march) because this bloc is just entirely inhospitable without immediate massive amounts of force to take down the slavic nations and push through the conventional way. Mapwise its not very engaging to conquer for the effort so i avoid it unless nessecary for greener yet slower pastures in the HRE or if im feeling lucky, west scandinavia.

 

[LordHoth]

Adding to this though a bit late -- but with 1.30 on the horizon, it could be time to consider some of the above changes in the area of Old Livonia. Perhaps some sort of balance between historical accuracy, map limitations, and gameplay concerns could be achieved if the secular -- spiritual rift between the Order and Dorpat/ Ösel / Riga was put into the game? This would ignore the Courlanders, but give two provinces to a combined Bishopric of Ösel and Dorpat -- maybe under vassalage to the Archbishop? Development-wise this would be more or less equal at starting time, and it would make the Livonian Order's situation more complex.

The other consideration I would like to propose is including the Old Livonian area under HRE -- either fixed at the start of the game or by some event where the Emperor can send a message and the countries there accept / reject. There is *some* historical basis for this (even in the 15th century):

- In 1395, the German Order's Hochmeister Konrad von Jungingen stated in a letter to the Reichsfürsten that the German (Teutonic) Order was a member of the HRE, and later went on to use this relationship to complicate the matters on whether the Pope or the Emperor was their liegelord -- clearly a ploy, but also proof of relationship (and I know that 1395 isn't in the 15th century but I thought this was a very good bit of legal evidence);
- After Tannenberg, the Reichsfürsten decided that the Prussian dominion of the German Order were to be protected -- and the "Roman King" accepted this from 1420 onwards;
- In 1418, at the elections of the Archbishop, the Emperor interjected for a candidate on the basis that Riga was "under the State" (that is, the HRE);
- In 1417 & 1418, some "old cathedral chaptermen" of Riga presented complaints against the Livonian Order to Sigismund three times;
- In 1429, the Bishop of Ösel-Wiek, visited Emperor Sigismund, took part in the Imperial Landsdag, and then travelled to Rome as a Royal Ambassador for Sigismund;
- In 1457, the bürgermeister of Cologne, Johann Penningk, sued the city of Riga in the Reichskammergericht;
- In 1474, the Emperor Friedrich III gave a Rigan clergyman, Stephanus von Sande, a right of privilege and a position in the cathedral chapter (though apparently von Sande may not have been able to take his position up which is also true for certain Imperial nominations in the heartlands).​

There is more to this, especially to highlight the relevance of the German Order's status within the Empire and to the Emperor which I am happy to highlight if you guys would like to know more. Regrettably, my source for this is a dissertation in Estonian, but my original inspiration was provided by this question: https://history.stackexchange.com/q...eutonic-knights-part-of-the-holy-roman-empire (Link to dissertation as well).

Extensive sources to a statement "The above resulted in the development of the understanding during the first part of the 15th century in German lands that the territories of the German Order around the Baltic Sea belong to the Holy Roman Empire." are, however, provided:

- Militzer. Der Wandel, pg 185–189;
- Flemmig. Die Beziehungen des Deutschen Ordens zum Reich, pg 9–42;
- Wefers. Politische System, pg 69–71 & 75–81, 95–96 & 111–113;
- Israel. Das Verhältnis, pg 6–63; Biskup. Der Deutsche Orden im Reich, in Preussen und Livland, pg 104–108;
- Johannes A. Mol. The „Hospice of the German Nobility“. Changes in the Admission Policy of the Teutonic Knights in the Fifteenth Century. – Mendicants, Military Orders, and Regionalism in Medieval Europe. Toim. Jürgen Sarnowsky. Aldershot – Brookfield USA – Singapore – Sydney: Ashgate 1999, pg 115–130.​

Also, however, to comment one of the proposals from above, Hiiumaa should definitely not be a separate province! There were hardly any people living there, and if more definition in the area is required the former capital of the bishopric was in Hapsal (before the move to Arensburg). Hapsal was heavily fortified into the 16th century and only some Muscovite mishaps there (or mercenaries... I forget which!) caused the decline in importance.

It would be good to hear more about the developments here, especially with some comments mentioning that the Hansa is coming in now!

 

[LordHoth]

I was hoping to bump this again as not very many commented on this. In October, I linked the Dev. Diaries to this as well in Oct 1st and Oct 8th, with the October 8th one getting some traction:

Well these are interesting points you've collected but I can't really tell how this is a contradiction to my post. It isn't controversial that the order considered the Emperor its overlord and that the order had a close relation to the Empire and its princes. But it was not an integrated part of the Empire in the same sense as the Imperial princes. As for example Jörg K. Hoensch pointed out in his works about the Luxembourgians / Emperor Sigismund, he did try to integrate the Teutonic Order into the Holy Roman Empire, but it didn't work out. I see where you are coming from and your points do prove the unique and close relations between Order and Empire, but not a constitutional kind of territorial suzerainity of Prussia. Except for the first point about Konrad von Jungingen: this really is something one could busy oneself with and look at the primary source.

There's ways for the empire to avoid losing Italy, why not have a route where they can integrate the Baltics?

Like others have said, there should be an incident that lets the emperor help the TO. Right now with the Danzig event they're doomed to die. As brandenburg you just have to conquer the cores you need and you dont need to go through the intricacy of a PU with ducal prussia.

Including a further elaborating post by myself expanding on possible options on how this could work in the present system of mechanics:

I think my point is that even if the territories were not integrated similarly to the Imperial principalities, there is an argument for having a chain of events by which those lands could do exactly that.

Let's say that "The New Bishop's Regalia Have Arrived from the Emperor" triggers every time -- oh, wait, those Old Livonian bishopric's are not in the game right now... Is Riga an Archbishopric? It could trigger there, in that case, every time a new Archbishop gets elected and offers temporary Imperial protection in some form or another (I don't think it should be directly military but perhaps an attack against them would cause a diplomatic relations' loss with all Imperial lords?) for a monthly tribute (or something else) and if followed enough times would prompt for those provinces to join the HRE properly. Why the Emperor would want to do that would be a temporary boost in Imperial Authority which could be useful, especially in the early years.

In other words, there are plenty of possibilities to make the unique situation of those lands stand out a little bit better. Also, while I appreciate this is not meant to be history but alternative history, it would be nice to see Old Livonia survive longer than it does these days -- after all, the Muscovite conquest in the 1560's nearly failed and had the Livonian Order's army been modernised they could have won more of the battles.

I really think this could make Old Livonia much more interesting, especially as it would give possible counter-momentum to Swedish / Danish / Muscovite expansion in the area. There's also plenty of scope for this to work within the new Imperial events system with feedback both from the Emperor and the members.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Formable Livonia should replace Kurland

 

[Aquamancer]

Formable Livonia should replace Kurland

Given that the duchy of Kurland is the historical nation into which the Livonian Order reformed to, I have a feeling that simply removing the option to form Kurland would not do. However, I can also see why the current decision is problematic: reforming into the duchy of Kurland only makes sense if the Livonian Order is confined to Curonia in the first place. So, perhaps it'd be better to replace the decision to form Kurland with a more dynamic decision, which allows the Livonian Order to form either Estonia, Livonia or Kurland depending on how much territory it holds and where its capital is?

This way, there is still a possibility for the Livonian Order to form Kurland if it is restricted to its historical area, while also allowing it to form the duchies of Estonia and Livonia if those are the regions they are confined to at the time of secularization. In addition, should the AI or the player manage to keep the Livonian Order's lands together, it could reform into the Kingdom of Livonia, which is essentially the same tag as the duchy of Livonia, but with the bonus of being promoted to a kingdom instead of remaining as a duchy.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Given that the duchy of Kurland is the historical nation into which the Livonian Order reformed to, I have a feeling that simply removing the option to form Kurland would not do. However, I can also see why the current decision is problematic: reforming into the duchy of Kurland only makes sense if the Livonian Order is confined to Curonia in the first place. So, perhaps it'd be better to replace the decision to form Kurland with a more dynamic decision, which allows the Livonian Order to form either Estonia, Livonia or Kurland depending on how much territory it holds and where its capital is?

This way, there is still a possibility for the Livonian Order to form Kurland if it is restricted to its historical area, while also allowing it to form the duchies of Estonia and Livonia if those are the regions they are confined to at the time of secularization. In addition, should the AI or the player manage to keep the Livonian Order's lands together, it could reform into the Kingdom of Livonia, which is essentially the same tag as the duchy of Livonia, but with the bonus of being promoted to a kingdom instead of remaining as a duchy.

I think that's reasonable a bit like a more useful Iceland

 

[Battlex]

Given that the duchy of Kurland is the historical nation into which the Livonian Order reformed to, I have a feeling that simply removing the option to form Kurland would not do. However, I can also see why the current decision is problematic: reforming into the duchy of Kurland only makes sense if the Livonian Order is confined to Curonia in the first place. So, perhaps it'd be better to replace the decision to form Kurland with a more dynamic decision, which allows the Livonian Order to form either Estonia, Livonia or Kurland depending on how much territory it holds and where its capital is?

This way, there is still a possibility for the Livonian Order to form Kurland if it is restricted to its historical area, while also allowing it to form the duchies of Estonia and Livonia if those are the regions they are confined to at the time of secularization. In addition, should the AI or the player manage to keep the Livonian Order's lands together, it could reform into the Kingdom of Livonia, which is essentially the same tag as the duchy of Livonia, but with the bonus of being promoted to a kingdom instead of remaining as a duchy.

The issue with a kingdom of Livonia tag is what ideas would you give it, as it only exists when Ivan the Terrible is trying to conquer that part of the world, whereas Kurland did some cool things during its time as vassalage, even if the ai so rarely takes vassals, but hopefully the new Gov. capacity mechanic will change this.

 

[Aquamancer]

The issue with a kingdom of Livonia tag is what ideas would you give it, as it only exists when Ivan the Terrible is trying to conquer that part of the world, whereas Kurland did some cool things during its time as vassalage, even if the ai so rarely takes vassals, but hopefully the new Gov. capacity mechanic will change this.

Given that many tags which historically did not exist for a terribly long time have ideas of their own, it shouldn't be too hard to research on the history of Livonia to find ideas for possible bonuses. Alternatively, it could be possible that regardless of what tag Livonian Order form, they always get the same ideas, highlighting that the state in question is the secularized version of the Livonian Order, rather than a state run by the local Estonians and Latvians.

 

[Battlex]

Given that many tags which historically did not exist for a terribly long time have ideas of their own, it shouldn't be too hard to research on the history of Livonia to find ideas for possible bonuses. Alternatively, it could be possible that regardless of what tag Livonian Order form, they always get the same ideas, highlighting that the state in question is the secularized version of the Livonian Order, rather than a state run by the local Estonians and Latvians.

I know they have Prussian culture in game but by 1444 was the livonian order semi secularised like the teutonics were with a large nobility of laity?
Now that prussia is an imperial incident, do you think secularising into KINGDOM of livonia would rely on someone nearby, as obviously a protestant has no need of a papal crown.

 

[Aquamancer]

I know they have Prussian culture in game but by 1444 was the livonian order semi secularised like the teutonics were with a large nobility of laity?
Now that prussia is an imperial incident, do you think secularising into KINGDOM of livonia would rely on someone nearby, as obviously a protestant has no need of a papal crown.

Again, research to the history of Livonia would probably provide an answer to your question. And yeah, given that the Livonian Order was nominally a part of the Empire, it'd probably be reasonable to assume that changes to the status quo of Livonia would provoke some sort of response from the Emperor.

 

[LordHoth]

Does it matter whether it's the Hochmeister in the Imperial Court or the Duke of Courland in the Polish one?.. It's a small enough state for it to be buffeted around, but Courland also tried its way with colonization and definitely tried to strike above its level.

 

[LordHoth]

I really think this could make Old Livonia much more interesting, especially as it would give possible counter-momentum to Swedish / Danish / Muscovite expansion in the area. There's also plenty of scope for this to work within the new Imperial events system with feedback both from the Emperor and the members.

Beyond the previous arguments I've made regarding the Archbishop of Riga and his subordinate bishops in Ösel and Dorpat, and the status of the Landmeister of the Livonian Order as a subordinate of the German Order and their court, there's also an argument in favour of the inclusion of these areas in the Empire through Riga itself. I recently noticed (never had to do much research on the city in the past) that from 1561 to 1581, it was a Free Imperial City, supporting the claim that the Empire had jurisdiction *and* that there should be a relatively easy avenue of including the Baltic German territories in the Empire.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Beyond the previous arguments I've made regarding the Archbishop of Riga and his subordinate bishops in Ösel and Dorpat, and the status of the Landmeister of the Livonian Order as a subordinate of the German Order and their court, there's also an argument in favour of the inclusion of these areas in the Empire through Riga itself. I recently noticed (never had to do much research on the city in the past) that from 1561 to 1581, it was a Free Imperial City, supporting the claim that the Empire had jurisdiction *and* that there should be a relatively easy avenue of including the Baltic German territories in the Empire.

We need to distinguish "dejure" and "de facto" If riga and livonian order is part of HRE, that means we're gonna see austria running around in pointless wars in russia

 

[LordHoth]

We need to distinguish "dejure" and "de facto" If riga and livonian order is part of HRE, that means we're gonna see austria running around in pointless wars in russia

Yeah, that wouldn't be great. That said... Perhaps the Emperorship could have "direction"? I could see an Austrian emperor want to fight the Ottomans, the Prussian emperor fight the Russians and Poles and Swedes, the Bavarian one fight Italians, etc.... Not sure that's very workable at this stage.

Either way, there could be other motivations -- and perhaps the Reformation could be a part of it (say if HRE originally has claims in Old Livonia, if they go anti-Emperor in the Reformation then they lose imperial protection and become up for grabs to the Muscovites?). It's not necessarily how it worked, but it's also better than having Muscovy run over the entire territory without any problems twenty years into the game.

I do think, however, that I've made a case that de jure the princes in Old Livonia were a part of the Reichsfürsten of the HRE. De facto, perhaps not -- but they had close links, and at least some of them tried to move to close the gap with the Empire even in the 16th century.

Perhaps Imperial defense shouldn't be automatic for such outlying lands? Perhaps... I don't know... I just feel that at present Old Livonia gets screwed massively and I don't like it too much. Hence my thoughts and options for inclusion. The same claim of course also comes up when we consider the Teutonic - Polish wars where the Emperor never really helped the Hochmeister even though they had personal and feudal connections...

 

[nyetflix]

Prussian culture shouldn't be in the German culture Group. Not yet atleast. They were Balts and only dissapeared in the XVIII century. Teutonic Order should have primary culture of German but making most provinces Old Prussian (or just Prussian) which belongs to the Baltic culture Group. Teutonic Order should be given two options - To secularize into Old Prussia or the German Prussia. Old Prussia gives the culture and names.

Yes! There should be some event or something to start making provinces German culture after the Reformation. Similarly, Silesia should have some events to turn to German culture, as it was still fairly Slavic at the start of the game but later a German area that was important to Prussia.